Supersonic Me-262?

[izod tester]

Certainly the Morane Parasol of 1915 did. Cecil Lewis commented on the sensitivity of pitch control in "Sagittarius Rising".

[victor tango]

"I think the closest a prop driven aeroplane came to the speed of sound was a Spitfire at Farnborough which reached I think .91M

KK
Would the Hawker Typhoon have been a close contender?

[longer ron]

"Speeds of 950 km/hr (590 mph) are reported to have been attained in a shallow dive 20 to 30 degrees from the horizontal. No vertical dives were made. At speeds of 950 to 1000 km/hr (590 to 620 mph) the airflow around the aircraft reached the speed of sound, and it is reported that the control surfaces no longer effect the direction of flight. the results vary with different airplanes; some wing over and dive while some dive gradually. It is also reported that once the speed of sound is exceeded, this condition disappears and normal control is restored".

I think one has to be a little sceptical about certain claims...even Willi Messerschmitt calculated that the 262 would be out of control after mach .86,so the critical mach number would probably not have been much faster than that - true supersonic flight would have to wait until the advent of powered controls and 'proper' swept wings !
The 262 did not really have a swept wing as such,there was a big thread on another forum 3 or 4 years ago discussing this claim and those who had the greatest grasp of aerodynamics were the most sceptical about this claim !

[longer ron]

Just to add to my post above - and yes I am aware that straight wing aircraft have exceeded the speed of sound but it isnt the norm

[longer ron]

Would the Hawker Typhoon have been a close contender?

In a word - No

The Typhoon had a relatively 'thick' wing section - thus would have had a low critical mach number,I am away from home so cannot check possible source for the Typhoon mcrit but the Tempest is usually quoted as .81/.83 for crit/ limiting mach number so therefore the Typhoon mcrit would be significantly lower than the Tempest - the Tempest had a much more advanced and thinner wing !

rgds LR

[joy ride]

Seeing today's thread on the Gloster Meteor/Dinky toy made me wonder how it (and the Vampire) would compare with the Me 262 for max dive speed and control.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote:

"Speeds of 950 km/hr (590 mph) are reported to have been attained in a shallow dive 20 to 30 degrees from the horizontal. No vertical dives were made. At speeds of 950 to 1000 km/hr (590 to 620 mph) the airflow around the aircraft reached the speed of sound, and it is reported that the control surfaces no longer effect the direction of flight. the results vary with different airplanes; some wing over and dive while some dive gradually. It is also reported that once the speed of sound is exceeded, this condition disappears and normal control is restored".

I think one has to be a little sceptical about certain claims...even Willi Messerschmitt calculated that the 262 would be out of control after mach .86,so the critical mach number would probably not have been much faster than that - true supersonic flight would have to wait until the advent of powered controls and 'proper' swept wings !

The 262 did not really have a swept wing as such, there was a big thread on another forum 3 or 4 years ago discussing this claim and those who had the greatest grasp of aerodynamics were the most sceptical about this claim !

These notes were written from test flights and anecdotal evidence - which probably came from interviews with Luftwaffe pilots who had flown the Me262. You must take into account that these speeds would probably have been recorded from the original instruments with little knowledge of compressibility and position errors, so they could have been out by quite a bit. As for the original calculation of the ME262's Mcrit, this was probably done using the Prandtl-Gaulert rule which was about the best they had at the time and which assumes an infinite level of drag at Mach 1. However, we now know better than this and the drag divergent Mach number is dependent on many factors, including the aerofoil thickness. The Germans knew the advantages for high speed flight of the swept wing as early as 1935 and a subsequent computer model proved that the Me262 could indeed exceed Mach 1. Having flown the Hawk supersonic with only a few more degrees of sweep, I'm inclined to believe that Luftwaffe pilots did indeed break the sound barrier in the 262.

[longer ron]

I think Herr Willi M was more concerned with actually retaining pitch control and also the finite structural strength of the aircraft at mach numbers higher than .86 especially if the aircraft was steadily 'bunting' due to mach tuck etc !

The Hawk has the advantage of great structural strength and of course irreversible fully powered tailplane and ailerons... and a fairly good bang seat if it all goes T.U.

rgds LR

edit - also -depends how you interpret this phrase ?

the airflow around the aircraft reached the speed of sound

[rotorfossil]

The Messerschmitt test pilot Gerd Lindner carried out research dives on the Me 262. Before T/O, the tailplane trim datum was set by the aerodynamicists and not touched. Beyond M.83 the elevator pull force increased to 100 lb at .86 to maintain the dive angle and violent buffeting was experienced. Some people may have gone faster but probably also made a big hole in the ground!

[BEagle]

The Jet Provost T Mk 6, otherwise known as the HS1182 or BWoS Hawk T Mk 1, could only exceed M1.0 with considerable patience and encouragement. It simply wasn't designed for such excitement, admirable though its other characteristics might have been.

Whereas its predecessor, the Folland Gnat, could exceed M1.0 very easily indeed and with no handling issues, buffet or other drama. As could the Hunter T Mk 7; in contrast, the single seat Hunter, which lacked the area rule of the 'barge', was less pleasant above M1.0 despite its greater engine thrust.

I'd be very surprised if any Me262 pilot exceeded M1.0 more than once.....

Although I gather that P-47 pilots came close to M1.0.

[longer ron]

The thing is with (say) a Hawk - ISTR that it has no mach limit - so will fly as fast as you can get it....

A 262 was a totally different kettle of fish... the .86 mach limit was actually the limit where one would run out of control !! simple as that.

Of course other small problems including lack of power and intake drag may have slowed the thing down but that would scarcely matter if the wings broke off under neg 'G' and perhaps the fuselage would pass mach 1.0 before becoming a lawn dart - the lord only knows what would be happening with those spindly little turbines