BOAC B707 ops in the 1960s
vctenderness
I remember the F/E you mention. I always understood he had "The Order of Lenin" (awarded to his squadron). I can confirm he always boasted about being well looked after in Moscow.
I think he was an expert in tropical aquarium fish.
I remember the F/E you mention. I always understood he had "The Order of Lenin" (awarded to his squadron). I can confirm he always boasted about being well looked after in Moscow.
I think he was an expert in tropical aquarium fish.
My own time in the USSR was not aviation-related at that time and I frequently found myself in some of the more obscure parts of the Soviet empire, accompanied as always, by an 'interpreter'. The trick with the 'floor dragons' I discovered early on was to present them with chocolate or packed sweets (of British origin) which in turn brought unlimited quantities of fresh tea and salami sandwiches and sometimes an upgrade 
However in some of the towns I visited, there was not always a hotel room available, so I was put into the Party members' private wards in hospitals twice and someone's flat on another occasion!
Leningrad as a city was much more fun, perhaps because it is a port. Plenty of bars and a few half-decent restaurants (только доллары! - $ only!) and a much pleasanter city overall than Moscow.
Anyway, back to the aviation theme. One thing I well remember is that on the SVO-LHR return flight, the captain would normally announce over the PA: "We have now left Soviet airspace," to loud cheers and the cabin staff would appear with the champagne flutes - this was long before business class and beancounters, though! Thanks BEA!
However in some of the towns I visited, there was not always a hotel room available, so I was put into the Party members' private wards in hospitals twice and someone's flat on another occasion! Leningrad as a city was much more fun, perhaps because it is a port. Plenty of bars and a few half-decent restaurants (только доллары! - $ only!) and a much pleasanter city overall than Moscow.
Anyway, back to the aviation theme. One thing I well remember is that on the SVO-LHR return flight, the captain would normally announce over the PA: "We have now left Soviet airspace," to loud cheers and the cabin staff would appear with the champagne flutes - this was long before business class and beancounters, though! Thanks BEA!
Barry - still remember the announcement of leaving soviet airspace and in some cases justified.
Shortly before we rolled one day after a long taxi out we were ordered back to the ramp with our departure clearance being cancelled.
A squad of military climbed on board, went through our passengers and hauled one of them off the aircraft. Nothing was said. The dispatcher did a LMC to the load sheet, although we had burnt quite a bit of fuel we just went and worried about legal reserves later.
Always wondered what happened to the poor sod.
Shortly before we rolled one day after a long taxi out we were ordered back to the ramp with our departure clearance being cancelled.
A squad of military climbed on board, went through our passengers and hauled one of them off the aircraft. Nothing was said. The dispatcher did a LMC to the load sheet, although we had burnt quite a bit of fuel we just went and worried about legal reserves later.
Always wondered what happened to the poor sod.
Sorry about the thread drift (unforgivable in a topic about navigation?) but it is 707 related.
Many years ago when I was in airline sales, we received a visit from a sales rep for Varig. He extolled the virtues of their 707s on the South Pacific as outperforming other airlines' 707s because the Varig aircraft "had the boosters". I never knew what he was talking about then and it still troubles me today. I had visions of JATO/RATO but I've never heard of such a thing on the 707. Does anyone know what he was on about?
Rgds
Many years ago when I was in airline sales, we received a visit from a sales rep for Varig. He extolled the virtues of their 707s on the South Pacific as outperforming other airlines' 707s because the Varig aircraft "had the boosters". I never knew what he was talking about then and it still troubles me today. I had visions of JATO/RATO but I've never heard of such a thing on the 707. Does anyone know what he was on about?
Rgds
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The early 707s and KC-135s had water injection which increased take-off thrust; they were known as "water wagons". I guess that was what he was referring to?
Not sure this will help but, if we are talking about the later variants, the 707-320B or 320C, they mostly had P&W JT3D-3 engines of 18000 lb thrust. But some had the JT3D-7, of 19000 lb. IIRC, an example of that in Africa was Trek Airways, which needed as much thrust as possible for long sectors out of Johannesburg (not that the dash-7 would have delivered the full 19000 lb at 6000 ft altitude, I hasten to add).
Varig didn't have the early water-injected JT3C-engined 707-120, which was confined to US operators (it was used on B-52s and KC-135 tankers previously). Varig were early 707 operators in 1960, but with the Rolls-Royce Conway engine; they had just a couple of these (ordered three, but one was lost before the final one was delivered), then they bought a few Convair 990s (GE engines), then merged with Panair and got two DC8-30s from them (JT4A engines), then got their first 707-320C in 1965, which they then standardised on, and sold off their decidedly mixed, both airframe and engines, earlier fleet. Their Rolls-engined first 707s had maintained an element of commonality with the Rolls Avon-engined Caravelles which they bought at the same time.
JT3C water-injection was a nuisance operationally, it added a considerable weight, both for plumbing and water, although it only operated for the first couple of minutes from brake release so you didn't normally carry the water with you, it was complex and unreliable, and created extra noise and smoke. You needed anyway to plan for the water injection to fail at V1, which was by NO means unknown.
Pratt had another go with it on some early 747 engines (those with a W suffix), more as a Band-Aid to the poor performance of the first JT9Ds, but this apparently had even worse reliability and was soon dispensed with.
JT3C water-injection was a nuisance operationally, it added a considerable weight, both for plumbing and water, although it only operated for the first couple of minutes from brake release so you didn't normally carry the water with you, it was complex and unreliable, and created extra noise and smoke. You needed anyway to plan for the water injection to fail at V1, which was by NO means unknown.
Pratt had another go with it on some early 747 engines (those with a W suffix), more as a Band-Aid to the poor performance of the first JT9Ds, but this apparently had even worse reliability and was soon dispensed with.
There was also the true story of a flight engineer on the very first BOAC flight to Moscow who was convinced his hotel bedroom was bugged. He felt something lumpy under the carpet, rolled it back and found a metal object screwed to the floor. He unscrewed it and heard a massive crash as the chandelier in the room below fell to the floor.
There's not many things that genuinely make me laugh out loud on t'Interweb, but that just did!
Readersof (and contributors to) this thread might find this excerpt from Madeleine'sQuest amusing.
An interesting story about life on a BOAC 707 en-route from Honolulu to Los Angeles, complete with a Hollywood actress on board, etc.
However ...
Did BOAC ever run 707s on the route from Honolulu to LAX ? Through the bulk of the 1960s they only served San Francisco in California, all with 707s, coming west from London through New York, across from Hong Kong and Tokyo through Honolulu, and up from Sydney and Fiji, also through Honolulu.
When they diverted the Sydney flights through Los Angeles instead, I believe that was when they changed the aircraft type on the South Pacific to the Super VC-10. About 1969. The Hong Kong route kept the 707, but also kept to San Francisco.
BOAC had much earlier, around 1962, run 707s on a separate direct London to Los Angeles route, but they didn’t really have the range and often had to stop, certainly westbound, at Winnipeg for fuel. When that was given up after a short while, LA was unserved again.
So, BOAC 707s on HNL-LAX ?
1970's BOAC it was definitely VC-10 Sydney through the West.
The BA591 LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD.
Crew either came back same route or went home via the East.
The Captain referred to in the story who insisted on being called Captain G*****Sir was on VC10's and was extremely unpopular with everyone so much so that he would not put his suitcase in the hold as it often got lost or squashed or left on apron in rain.
The Sydney through the west was so popular with crew that legend has it one crew had 591 tattooed on their bums!
The BA591 LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD.
Crew either came back same route or went home via the East.
The Captain referred to in the story who insisted on being called Captain G*****Sir was on VC10's and was extremely unpopular with everyone so much so that he would not put his suitcase in the hold as it often got lost or squashed or left on apron in rain.
The Sydney through the west was so popular with crew that legend has it one crew had 591 tattooed on their bums!
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WHBM
I disagree with you about the B747 water injection.
It was reasonably reliable and in the case of the airline I flew with remained widely used until the aircraft were replaced with RR engine new ones after about 1979 .
It was however a bit nerve racking in use ,particularly for the FE.I don't remember the engines being designated with a W. Our final ones were JT9 7Fs (from memory).
In the case of the 707s water disappeared fairly early when the JT3s were fan modified.
Wunwing
I disagree with you about the B747 water injection.
It was reasonably reliable and in the case of the airline I flew with remained widely used until the aircraft were replaced with RR engine new ones after about 1979 .
It was however a bit nerve racking in use ,particularly for the FE.I don't remember the engines being designated with a W. Our final ones were JT9 7Fs (from memory).
In the case of the 707s water disappeared fairly early when the JT3s were fan modified.
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Back to that water injection, as has been stated the system operated for the first couple of minutes of takeoff and climb out. Thereafter what was left became unnecessary baggage and soon after that it became frozen baggage, a large ice lolly.
My home was a mile west of Grand Central airport which is about 5 miles northwest of Jan Smuts, thus it was we would lie on the lawn in the early evening and watched the European bound aircraft dump their excess water over our house.
My home was a mile west of Grand Central airport which is about 5 miles northwest of Jan Smuts, thus it was we would lie on the lawn in the early evening and watched the European bound aircraft dump their excess water over our house.
The Captain referred to in the story who insisted on being called Captain G*****Sir was on VC10's and was extremely unpopular with everyone so much so that he would not put his suitcase in the hold as it often got lost or squashed or left on apron in rain.
Oh you must be referring to 'The Blade'. He used to wear a pair of white gloves and checked the cleanliness of the aircraft and woe betide the cleaners and cabin crew if there was any dust. Of course those were the days before slots came along. Now the stories are coming out.
The notable feature of water in use was the heavy smoke on departure. Someone more tech than myself can maybe explain why water injection leads to this. Also was it pure water ? The BAC One-Eleven used a water-methanol mix for the same performance enhancement purpose.
The BAC 1-11 did not use water-methanol, it used demineralised water. Watermeth was used in the Dart engine to produce the same effect. I believe the JT9D used demineralised water also.