Avro Shackleton on M25 today. Where from and to?
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Oxenos,
Thank you, far more enlightened and far more accurate that I could ever have been, re the Translation units, I finished up with around 400 boxes of the things when all the stock was being disposed of, the good ones went to the pylon racers the rest we stripped down and scrapped, that's how I saw so many service cards, and later when I met with the Pelican 16 crew, they came up to my warehouse to try and get hold of many priceless spares, they explained their flight ended by the failure of the TUs on two engines on one wing, leaving them flying in a giant circle with not enough control to land properly, or indeed make to a good enough landing strip, all the crew and pax survived the resultant desert night landing , but it was a very great loss to the SAAF people losing Pelican 16
Peter R-B
Thank you, far more enlightened and far more accurate that I could ever have been, re the Translation units, I finished up with around 400 boxes of the things when all the stock was being disposed of, the good ones went to the pylon racers the rest we stripped down and scrapped, that's how I saw so many service cards, and later when I met with the Pelican 16 crew, they came up to my warehouse to try and get hold of many priceless spares, they explained their flight ended by the failure of the TUs on two engines on one wing, leaving them flying in a giant circle with not enough control to land properly, or indeed make to a good enough landing strip, all the crew and pax survived the resultant desert night landing , but it was a very great loss to the SAAF people losing Pelican 16
Peter R-B
Thread Starter
Thanks Peter R-B & Oxenos for the info on the contra-rotation and pitches. So only 1° more on the back prop? Not as much as I was expecting. I hope the Europrop TP400 (A400M) engine designers have taken note of everything learned from the years of experience gained with design and maintenance of contraprops.
I hope the Europrop TP400 (A400M) engine designers have taken note of everything learned from the years of experience gained with design and maintenance of contraprops.
Re the TU lube
Post HB's accident and the subsequent engineering investigation, we were down to doing the TU lube every 2 hours - apparently to guarantee the lubrication as oxenos described. On the AEW the initial thought was as the engines were run at a much higher RPM (2200 IIRC, as opposed to 'high boost, low RPM on the MR) to provide the power for the AN-APS 20 radar it wouldn't be necessary; events quickly proved the idea wrong (although not catastrophically), so we reinstated the evolution. Even so the TU's could fail - the sparks coming from between the spinners in the middle of the night does wonders for the adrenaline when a long way from land!
Post HB's accident and the subsequent engineering investigation, we were down to doing the TU lube every 2 hours - apparently to guarantee the lubrication as oxenos described. On the AEW the initial thought was as the engines were run at a much higher RPM (2200 IIRC, as opposed to 'high boost, low RPM on the MR) to provide the power for the AN-APS 20 radar it wouldn't be necessary; events quickly proved the idea wrong (although not catastrophically), so we reinstated the evolution. Even so the TU's could fail - the sparks coming from between the spinners in the middle of the night does wonders for the adrenaline when a long way from land!
Pretty sure HB's crash was due to a piston failure, rather than T.U.
I was on the Sqn. (205) at the time and flew on one of the S.A.R. sorties, flying around the dinghy all night. Their position was such that it was a long time before they could be rescued.
The story we got on the Sqn was that a piston failed, releasing its con-rod, which chopped through the sump, cutting the oil lines between the constant speed unit and the pitch change mechanism. This caused the props to overspeed. It also caused a fire, as the induction system would still be sending fuel into the cylinder.
The crew's attempts to feather the props simply sent more oil down the broken lines to feed the fire. The fire then spread back into the wing, where there was no way of extinguishing it. They were high (for a Shack) as the were going to over fly Sumatra. Before they could get down to sea level the wing burnt through and broke off outboard of the engine. (An outer, I think No.4)
This left them with a loss of lift on that side, and only one aileron with which to counteract the resultant roll. Remarkably, they did not lose control, but were not able get the wings level, so that the aircraft hit the water one wing low. As it cartwheeled, the nose forward of the cockpit was ripped off.
The only survivor from the forward part was the engineer, who stepped out through the cockpit into the water. It was, of course, the survival of the engineer which gave the investigation so much information.
He and the two survivors from aft found themselves in the water with only their Mae Wests. However, as the aircraft sank, a dinghy broke out of its wing stowage, inflated, and surfaced next to them.
I was on the squadron for another 2 years after that, and a further 8 months on Mk. 3s before converting to the Nimrod, and do not recall 2 hourly T.U. lubes. It was necessary to increase revs from time to time to burn the lead deposits off the plugs (tetra-ethyl lead for octane rating) and I vaguely recall that that was every 2 hours,but that was not related to the T.U.s.
I can well imagine the T.U.s on the AEW not being happy with a steady 2200. It was the increasing and reducing of the rpm which caused the lubricating pistons to move in and out against their springs, forcing the oil to the rack bolts. At a steady rpm, even a high one, they would not have moved.
I was on the Sqn. (205) at the time and flew on one of the S.A.R. sorties, flying around the dinghy all night. Their position was such that it was a long time before they could be rescued.
The story we got on the Sqn was that a piston failed, releasing its con-rod, which chopped through the sump, cutting the oil lines between the constant speed unit and the pitch change mechanism. This caused the props to overspeed. It also caused a fire, as the induction system would still be sending fuel into the cylinder.
The crew's attempts to feather the props simply sent more oil down the broken lines to feed the fire. The fire then spread back into the wing, where there was no way of extinguishing it. They were high (for a Shack) as the were going to over fly Sumatra. Before they could get down to sea level the wing burnt through and broke off outboard of the engine. (An outer, I think No.4)
This left them with a loss of lift on that side, and only one aileron with which to counteract the resultant roll. Remarkably, they did not lose control, but were not able get the wings level, so that the aircraft hit the water one wing low. As it cartwheeled, the nose forward of the cockpit was ripped off.
The only survivor from the forward part was the engineer, who stepped out through the cockpit into the water. It was, of course, the survival of the engineer which gave the investigation so much information.
He and the two survivors from aft found themselves in the water with only their Mae Wests. However, as the aircraft sank, a dinghy broke out of its wing stowage, inflated, and surfaced next to them.
I was on the squadron for another 2 years after that, and a further 8 months on Mk. 3s before converting to the Nimrod, and do not recall 2 hourly T.U. lubes. It was necessary to increase revs from time to time to burn the lead deposits off the plugs (tetra-ethyl lead for octane rating) and I vaguely recall that that was every 2 hours,but that was not related to the T.U.s.
I can well imagine the T.U.s on the AEW not being happy with a steady 2200. It was the increasing and reducing of the rpm which caused the lubricating pistons to move in and out against their springs, forcing the oil to the rack bolts. At a steady rpm, even a high one, they would not have moved.
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I am grateful for the explanations as to how the TUs worked, in our inquiring minds, we thought it was something to do with the RPM, that fired the lube stroke, but we were not too sure, the good thing is I gave several old ex service guys good steady 2/3 days a week of work stripping things down to scrap them, they saved all the service cards "they thought they would be needed" I treated them royally as one would to that sort of chap. Sadly I was running out of room at my warehouse, due to my hobby becoming a small empire,..it was the sobering comments from my father who reminded me that pistons were all being replaced by Jets and Turbines, so reluctantly I agreed with him and started a nearly three year scrapping job, and only now are people looking for what I sent to the furnace. sods Law really but we all had loads of fun..
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Peter R-B
Lancashire
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Don't worry too much Peter. There's quite a bit of what you managed to sell still kicking about, and we know where a good amount of it is. Hopefully we can persuade those that have them to part with some props and TU's.
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Was in Smiths today and saw the magazine "Aviation Classics" which is dedicated to the Shack. An excellent collection of pics and info, so I actually bought it istead of standing there reading it!
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Thanks for the information Croqueteer. Will look out for that magazine. Many years ago I put in a sealed bid for a flight in a Shackleton and got it. One of the best days of my life.
I know what you mean. Many years ago I put in a sealed bid for Hastings and got the Shackleton!
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That reminds me of God offering Adam some company in the form of this super being, lovely, brains, brilliant conversation, super cook and an all round perfect companion, but Adam would have to pay with an eye, left arm, right legand one ear. Adam, whilst interested, thought it a bit expensive. What would you give me for a rib?
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Mainly SAAF Shackletons
In his #14 Proplinerman asks for shots of SAAF Shackletons, which prompted me to dig up those I photographed in South Africa (Cape Town and Swartkop) in 1992 and re-scan them.
I've put them on my aviation website at The Shackleton - English-for-Flyaways and hope the link works.
I am indebted to Bo Burger for flying me in to Swartkop that Sunday back in '92 (round robin in a Cessna 172 from Lanseria).
One day I'll get round to scanning the other exhibits...
vbrgds
atb
I've put them on my aviation website at The Shackleton - English-for-Flyaways and hope the link works.
I am indebted to Bo Burger for flying me in to Swartkop that Sunday back in '92 (round robin in a Cessna 172 from Lanseria).
One day I'll get round to scanning the other exhibits...
vbrgds
atb
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atb,
Pelican 16( the 16 is the last number on the fuselage) is also in your pictures as a fully on it wheels working a/c, the only pictures I have seen thus far where the one's taken by the NATO rescue plane(I think it was a French Maritime Re-Con a/c that was tasked to find the downed Shackleton,) those pictures were given to my by a character called "Potty" Potgieter( i hope I have spelt his name correctly) he was a character and a half, but then all the crew were very easy to get on with and readily explained just what went wrong and then caused them to land at night in the desert, wrecking the A/c in the process. They had already stopped en-route to change an engine that was being carried in the bomb bay, but I seem to remember them saying they used the same TU which later caused the shutting down of that good engine, adding to the one on the same wing that was shut down earlier.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
Pelican 16( the 16 is the last number on the fuselage) is also in your pictures as a fully on it wheels working a/c, the only pictures I have seen thus far where the one's taken by the NATO rescue plane(I think it was a French Maritime Re-Con a/c that was tasked to find the downed Shackleton,) those pictures were given to my by a character called "Potty" Potgieter( i hope I have spelt his name correctly) he was a character and a half, but then all the crew were very easy to get on with and readily explained just what went wrong and then caused them to land at night in the desert, wrecking the A/c in the process. They had already stopped en-route to change an engine that was being carried in the bomb bay, but I seem to remember them saying they used the same TU which later caused the shutting down of that good engine, adding to the one on the same wing that was shut down earlier.
Peter R-B
Lancashire
What is the aircraft seen under the tail of Pelican 16 in atb's photo?
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I notice that another of the advantages of the contra rotating propellers is the lack of "Swing" on take off it was described to me as a straight forward take off as the Shack had no powered controls thus was much easier to control during take off than the Lanc and the Lincon. whether the pilot was giving me his ground crew ,a load of old guff I don't know but it semed a good idea at the time.
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@ India Four Two
Lauriebe is correct - I've dug out the original photo print and the aircraft is Ventura TS-306. Its full history is here:
Photos: Lockheed (Vega) 237 Ventura V Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
And here's one of it as 6498:
Photo: 6498 (CN: 237/6290) South Africa - Air Force Lockheed Ventura Mk.2 by Michael Eaton Photoid: 7278794 - JetPhotos.Net
IIRC there was a similar aircraft on a disused airfield we flew over but I can't locate the notes I may have made at the time. Also one outside the museum at Lanseria. Unfortunately we didn't have enough time to get inside to see the Storch etc., though I'm sure my intrepid pilot would have made that happen had I pushed him! About a year later (1993) the Lanseria exhibits had transferred to Swartkop.
brgds
atb
Lauriebe is correct - I've dug out the original photo print and the aircraft is Ventura TS-306. Its full history is here:
Photos: Lockheed (Vega) 237 Ventura V Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
And here's one of it as 6498:
Photo: 6498 (CN: 237/6290) South Africa - Air Force Lockheed Ventura Mk.2 by Michael Eaton Photoid: 7278794 - JetPhotos.Net
IIRC there was a similar aircraft on a disused airfield we flew over but I can't locate the notes I may have made at the time. Also one outside the museum at Lanseria. Unfortunately we didn't have enough time to get inside to see the Storch etc., though I'm sure my intrepid pilot would have made that happen had I pushed him! About a year later (1993) the Lanseria exhibits had transferred to Swartkop.
brgds
atb
Last edited by atb1943; 25th Nov 2014 at 05:46. Reason: add a u
atb,
Thanks. I thought the original picture looked a bit "Ventura-like", but I couldn't see a tailwheel. I thought it might be a nose wheel aircraft, tipped back on its tail.
I had forgotten that the tail wheel was so far back and is thus conveniently hidden by the post in the foreground of your picture.
Thanks. I thought the original picture looked a bit "Ventura-like", but I couldn't see a tailwheel. I thought it might be a nose wheel aircraft, tipped back on its tail.
I had forgotten that the tail wheel was so far back and is thus conveniently hidden by the post in the foreground of your picture.