Post War Merlin
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I did read somewhere that after the war, so many Merlins were hanging around that the Ministry of Supply dictated that new airliner designs should be Merlin powered rather than pursue the advantages of the turboprop.
"Commercial" Merlins (the 600 and 700 Series) have what is known as 'Transport heads and banks', a changed design being more suited to long flights at stable power settings.
Quite a number of Spitfires and P-51's flying these days will have these fitted, most likely down to availability, but there's also the theory that the Transport units are a bit more robust, being of a later standard and all that.
"Commercial" Merlins (the 600 and 700 Series) have what is known as 'Transport heads and banks', a changed design being more suited to long flights at stable power settings.
Quite a number of Spitfires and P-51's flying these days will have these fitted, most likely down to availability, but there's also the theory that the Transport units are a bit more robust, being of a later standard and all that.
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I have heard that the original owner and builder of the Romney Hythe and Dymchurch Railway had a extra loco for personal use which was powered by a Merlin or one of its deritives, and he was notorious for going at high speed along the line. Road, Off-Road, sea, air and rail... quite a versatile engine.
Could be an Urban Myth!
Could be an Urban Myth!
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Meteors were also fitted in post-war Air Sea Rescue & Motor Gun Boats normally IIRC in a triple installation - at least that what was fitted in an ex-Army boat our local dive club was offered in the late 70s. A book on Vosper-built high speed boats* shows the "Gay" class boats as having "three of the Packard petrol engines" - presumably Merlins - while some of their ASRs had twin marinised Griffons. Deltic diesels were installed in the later "Dark" class boats.
*A Quest for Speed" (c) Vosper Limited 1972 ISBN 0 09 109720 7
*A Quest for Speed" (c) Vosper Limited 1972 ISBN 0 09 109720 7
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Merlin in cars
Sounds like a guy called Jack Dodds who was a gearbox refurbisher. He was based , I think around Epsom way and he certainly put a Merlin in a RR maybe a Jag. There has been a recent article in in one of the Enthusiast Car Magazines that caught my eye whilst browsing in Smiths, I am too much of a cheapskate to buy. He somehow managed to overcome transmission problems, but I am not so sure as silencer. Alan
Used in the Royal Navy's "Hunt" class minesweepers (9 cylinder version), the U.S. navy's Vietnam era patrol boats(18cylinder version) and in the New York Fire Department's water pumps(9 cylinder version). Originally developed for the Royal Navy's motor torpedo boats. Tested in a post war Kriesgsmarine S-boat (inaccurately termed E-boats) two Deltics produced as much power as the three D-B units originally fitted.
The 18 cylinder ones were rated at 1,650 hp for rail use for reliability. They were rated at 2,250 or 2,500 for marine use.
Deltics.
They are still used in some ships I gather. I was at a dinner party last year and there was a feller there who used to work on them in the UK. An interesting little anecdote he related was that Perkins used to have some Deltic drawings that they used to take to exhinitions etc. They used to challenge budding engineers to spot the 'Nine mistakes' - presumably the source of some of the Deltics problems. Our guest managed to find nineteen - and was promptly offered a job on the spot....
What were the disadvantages of these engines in civilian service ?
At least the second pilot (co-pilot) during the take off was adept in the Lincoln, at minimising the pain to his ears, by holding his right hand pressed hard against his right ear under his cloth helmet, and with his left hand ensuring the throttles would not slip back. I recall after several hours in the air flying the Lincoln, the racket from the Merlins seemed to numb the ears and it took some time on the ground to get hearing back again. I pity the passengers on the civil Rolls Royce Merlin aircraft.
As someone who had experience on Lincolns flying in the tropics, I regard the engine failure or shut-down rate would have been unacceptably high for civil airline operations. My log book for that period (3000 hours on Lincolns) reveals over 30 engines failures combined, in the RR Merlin 85 and Mk 102. About one third would have been instant failures caused by blow-backs while the remainder were precautionary feathering due severe glycol leaks or over-heating coolant. In marked contrast, with similar hours on radials, I recall about four shut downs.
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@ bigal 1941.... good, but no cigar!
John Dodds was an automatic transmission specialist -telegraphic address "DODDOMOBILE SURREY" the Merlin -engined monster had a Rolls Cloud radiator shell....Rolls took legal action against him and a fire sealed it's fate....the mechanics still survive in a custom-built Fibreglass body...He lives , with the beast, in Spain.
anecdote.....cruising back through France, comes across a stranded Rolls. Dodds gets an old oil-drum and a door from the ajacent field, opens his boot, which was a fitted, miniature workshop,and rebuilt the gearbox at the side of the road. Dodds happy, extra job was a bonus, owner happy, quick and cheaper repair and little time lost from his hols!
IIrc, he as subject of Sunday Times "driving" mag, a few weeks ago....there's a chance it's online .
ISTR the Packard Merlins were re-engineered, as the RR production was all hand-fitted asn so varied enormously...whereas the Packard machine-toolsturned out very precise and uniform fully interchangeable parts....Myth?..don't know but it was certainly a beautiful ,complex engine.
John Dodds was an automatic transmission specialist -telegraphic address "DODDOMOBILE SURREY" the Merlin -engined monster had a Rolls Cloud radiator shell....Rolls took legal action against him and a fire sealed it's fate....the mechanics still survive in a custom-built Fibreglass body...He lives , with the beast, in Spain.
anecdote.....cruising back through France, comes across a stranded Rolls. Dodds gets an old oil-drum and a door from the ajacent field, opens his boot, which was a fitted, miniature workshop,and rebuilt the gearbox at the side of the road. Dodds happy, extra job was a bonus, owner happy, quick and cheaper repair and little time lost from his hols!
IIrc, he as subject of Sunday Times "driving" mag, a few weeks ago....there's a chance it's online .
ISTR the Packard Merlins were re-engineered, as the RR production was all hand-fitted asn so varied enormously...whereas the Packard machine-toolsturned out very precise and uniform fully interchangeable parts....Myth?..don't know but it was certainly a beautiful ,complex engine.
cs,
Not a myth. Stanley Hooker mentioned it in his autobiography "Not Much of an Engineer".
The Packard team told him, much to the shock of the RR engineers, that would have to redo all the drawings because they were not precise enough for mass-production.
Not a myth. Stanley Hooker mentioned it in his autobiography "Not Much of an Engineer".
The Packard team told him, much to the shock of the RR engineers, that would have to redo all the drawings because they were not precise enough for mass-production.
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I flew the Canadian C4, as the endorsement in my licence describes it. In the UK we described it as the Argonaut as named by BOAC, the original operator. The ones I flew were pressurised, with the eyebrow control panel and elements of that system similar to the DC6 as far as I recall. The Merlin engines had cross-over exhausts in order to reduce the volume effect. I don't recall the cabin noise levels being much thought of as a problem though. It was very different from the DC4, but had a similar profile to the casual observer. Quite a number were operated by charter companies, and Derby airways flew them off grass at their Burnaston base. I recall also using grass runways a couple or three times. They were very pleasant to handle, but in somewhere like Bagdad or Sharjah in mid August, the Merlins didn't much like being held in a queue at the holding point. Had to shut down or return to the ramp once....maybe twice. No weather radar, and navigation over water or desert was Consol ( MF), Astro, and even drift sight. ( hole in the floor with graticule if it wasn't too cloudy.)
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Tudor v. DC-4
We all know that DC-3 was...what it was, but DC-4 was truly game-changing, due in large part to PW R.2000. When a UK team to US saw it (and C-69 Connie) in 11/42 they were muchly depressed. Q: How in Peace would UK earn $ against such competitors?
A: turbines. So on 4 and 5 April,1944 work was funded on transport derivatives of Halifax (with Bristol Hercules) and Lancaster (with Merlin), Interim, definitive later Marks to have Bristol Theseus or RR Clyde propellor-turbine, then in work for Vickers Windsor Pacific bomber. By the time, 12/44, of the Chicago Conference that led to the regulatory regime for airline business, Avro Type 689 Tudor II seemed fit to match these US products and 79 were ordered for the Kangaroo Route - BOAC/Qantas/S.African A/W. In 4/46 licences to build it were agreed with Avro Canada and GAF/Melbourne. But...
In 1944 Canadian Vickers took a licence to (enhance and build) DC-4: first flight, 15/7/46. Why did they choose Merlin for it? Probably: to expand civil prospects into Sterling Area carriers. Along the way (4/44-4/46) Hives at RR was nagged by Ministers to attend to civil Merlin, which he had down-played: his mind was on turbines. He agreed a fixed price MAP contract to 100 hour Type Test to civil operating parameters, onway to chase R.2000 TBO (which post #11 presents as 2,500 hr cf Merlin 850hr in 10/61). He is reported {IIRC in Pugh's Magic of a Name} to have got the number very wrong and lost a bundle.
Tudor started losing business to C-4M even before 11/4/47 when any/all variants were rejected by BOAC and its Kangaroo partners. But Hercules/Hermes did no better: 25 ordered for BOAC 19/3/47, soon regretted. BOAC's 21/7/48 order for 22 C-4M was $-driven - they wanted more Connies, but Canada set the airframes against its UK Reconstruction Loan and the engines came for £.
So: neither Hercules or Merlin, Hermes or Tudor cut the mustard as credible, economical business propositions. (D)C-4 (and L-0/749) spectacularly did so. Apologists say: economy of local market scale. Well...how many Merlins, Hercules, Halifax, Lancaster had stimulated corporate memory, production learning? No. We wuz not robbed. Peter Masefield's memoirs, Flight Path,Airlife,2002 have a Chapter on his slide rule demonstrating in 1944 their economic illiteracy - breakeven operating cost never attainable. No UK designer had given a moment's thought to that alien notion.
A: turbines. So on 4 and 5 April,1944 work was funded on transport derivatives of Halifax (with Bristol Hercules) and Lancaster (with Merlin), Interim, definitive later Marks to have Bristol Theseus or RR Clyde propellor-turbine, then in work for Vickers Windsor Pacific bomber. By the time, 12/44, of the Chicago Conference that led to the regulatory regime for airline business, Avro Type 689 Tudor II seemed fit to match these US products and 79 were ordered for the Kangaroo Route - BOAC/Qantas/S.African A/W. In 4/46 licences to build it were agreed with Avro Canada and GAF/Melbourne. But...
In 1944 Canadian Vickers took a licence to (enhance and build) DC-4: first flight, 15/7/46. Why did they choose Merlin for it? Probably: to expand civil prospects into Sterling Area carriers. Along the way (4/44-4/46) Hives at RR was nagged by Ministers to attend to civil Merlin, which he had down-played: his mind was on turbines. He agreed a fixed price MAP contract to 100 hour Type Test to civil operating parameters, onway to chase R.2000 TBO (which post #11 presents as 2,500 hr cf Merlin 850hr in 10/61). He is reported {IIRC in Pugh's Magic of a Name} to have got the number very wrong and lost a bundle.
Tudor started losing business to C-4M even before 11/4/47 when any/all variants were rejected by BOAC and its Kangaroo partners. But Hercules/Hermes did no better: 25 ordered for BOAC 19/3/47, soon regretted. BOAC's 21/7/48 order for 22 C-4M was $-driven - they wanted more Connies, but Canada set the airframes against its UK Reconstruction Loan and the engines came for £.
So: neither Hercules or Merlin, Hermes or Tudor cut the mustard as credible, economical business propositions. (D)C-4 (and L-0/749) spectacularly did so. Apologists say: economy of local market scale. Well...how many Merlins, Hercules, Halifax, Lancaster had stimulated corporate memory, production learning? No. We wuz not robbed. Peter Masefield's memoirs, Flight Path,Airlife,2002 have a Chapter on his slide rule demonstrating in 1944 their economic illiteracy - breakeven operating cost never attainable. No UK designer had given a moment's thought to that alien notion.
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Interesting quote in the April FlyPast issue about the Saunders-Roe Princess, re British post-war attempts at making airliners (with some exceptions, naturally. Comet, Avro RJ, et al): "Like many British aircraft, the Princess proved to be a huge technical success and a monumental commercial failure".
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Merlin course notes
In my late fathers collection I found the course notes for the Merlin
as fitted to the Tudor IV. Maybe that contains some interesting info.
as fitted to the Tudor IV. Maybe that contains some interesting info.
Merlin powered DC-4 worried P&W
From my reading I remember seeing that P&W was worried enough about Merlins re-engining DC-4 that they pushed their R-2180E engine. It never powered any DC-4 but only the SAAB Scania and a helicopter.
However I did see a DC-4 re-engined with Wright R-2600 at KEWR one day. It was on a sales tour by the company who did the conversion (PEMCO?). Its extra 250 hp per engine apparently really pepped up the old girl the salesman said but no one was interested. Wonder what happened to it? The installation It looked good, the engine cowling was not noticeably different from the original P&W R-200O. There were lots of surplus Wright R-2600 around then.
However I did see a DC-4 re-engined with Wright R-2600 at KEWR one day. It was on a sales tour by the company who did the conversion (PEMCO?). Its extra 250 hp per engine apparently really pepped up the old girl the salesman said but no one was interested. Wonder what happened to it? The installation It looked good, the engine cowling was not noticeably different from the original P&W R-200O. There were lots of surplus Wright R-2600 around then.
My late dad spoke highly of the Comet, it was his main steed as a tank driver during National Service.
I'm not sure how you could describe the Meteor as a cut-down 12 cylinder version of the Merlin when they both had 12 cylinders. The biggest difference was the lack of supercharger as tanks don't generally cruise around at 20-30,000 ft.
I saw John Dodds' beast in the flesh in the early '70s. He was filling up at a garage he owned just south of Bromley when I pulled in. It was originally built by Paul Jameson who struggled with finding a suitable transmission and Dodds came up with a solution.
When I saw it it still had the original vaguely Capri-ish body and the RR grille and bumpers. IIRC, RR changed their policy after that, if you wanted a new grille and bumpers you had to hand over the bent ones they were to replace!
Couple of links
The Petrol Stop: The BEAST Merlin Powered Car
The Beast | Features | evo
As he pulled out onto the road, a bloke in a hotted-up Anglia thought he'd have a race. There was a brief growl and the "Rolls" was gone.
ICT_SLB
I'd always assumed the same until a couple of years ago but not Packard Merlins, pre-war designed monsters of, if my calculations are correct, around 40 litres.
Packard V12 Marine Engine
India Four Two
That was Ford saying the tolerances weren't tight enough. Packard may have had a similar problem but they had to redraw them anyway from UK to US standards.
I'm not sure how you could describe the Meteor as a cut-down 12 cylinder version of the Merlin when they both had 12 cylinders. The biggest difference was the lack of supercharger as tanks don't generally cruise around at 20-30,000 ft.
I saw John Dodds' beast in the flesh in the early '70s. He was filling up at a garage he owned just south of Bromley when I pulled in. It was originally built by Paul Jameson who struggled with finding a suitable transmission and Dodds came up with a solution.
When I saw it it still had the original vaguely Capri-ish body and the RR grille and bumpers. IIRC, RR changed their policy after that, if you wanted a new grille and bumpers you had to hand over the bent ones they were to replace!
Couple of links
The Petrol Stop: The BEAST Merlin Powered Car
The Beast | Features | evo
As he pulled out onto the road, a bloke in a hotted-up Anglia thought he'd have a race. There was a brief growl and the "Rolls" was gone.
ICT_SLB
I'd always assumed the same until a couple of years ago but not Packard Merlins, pre-war designed monsters of, if my calculations are correct, around 40 litres.
Packard V12 Marine Engine
India Four Two
That was Ford saying the tolerances weren't tight enough. Packard may have had a similar problem but they had to redraw them anyway from UK to US standards.
Yes DHfan that's right.
I couldn't be bothered to take issue with the "cut down 12 cylinder" bit but someone had to! Apart from not being supercharged, the other significant differences between Meteor and Merlin to suit the tank were the direction of rotation and the power output arrangements.
ETA agéd memory has just remembered the Meteorite which was cut down but to 8 cylinders from 12.
As you say it was Ford (Trafford Park, in Manchester) which had production engineering problems with the Merlin long before any transatlantic involvement. However, as Hooker stated "once the great Ford factory at Manchester started production, Merlins came out like shelling peas at the rate of 400 per week
I couldn't be bothered to take issue with the "cut down 12 cylinder" bit but someone had to! Apart from not being supercharged, the other significant differences between Meteor and Merlin to suit the tank were the direction of rotation and the power output arrangements.
ETA agéd memory has just remembered the Meteorite which was cut down but to 8 cylinders from 12.
As you say it was Ford (Trafford Park, in Manchester) which had production engineering problems with the Merlin long before any transatlantic involvement. However, as Hooker stated "once the great Ford factory at Manchester started production, Merlins came out like shelling peas at the rate of 400 per week
Last edited by Allan Lupton; 6th Mar 2014 at 09:29.
North Star
My father would pick up me and my sister for summer vacation away from Toronto and best of all my stepfather.
The Merlin powered North Star was seriously noisy and slow.
We much preferred the Viscount - big Windows, fast, but a bit short on range in the early models. Great Falls, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg and a long stretch to Toronto and its miseries.
A few decades after, I would take the evening course on the old TCA Viscount simulator. It would not trim out on four, but trimmed nicely on three
The Merlin powered North Star was seriously noisy and slow.
We much preferred the Viscount - big Windows, fast, but a bit short on range in the early models. Great Falls, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg and a long stretch to Toronto and its miseries.
A few decades after, I would take the evening course on the old TCA Viscount simulator. It would not trim out on four, but trimmed nicely on three