When did airlines cease doing training circuits?
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When did airlines cease doing training circuits?
The VC10 thread got me wondering.... When did airlines stop doing circuit training in the actual aircraft, relying totally on sims?
I do remember many years ago (at least 15, maybe more) a large Airbus (A300?) doing numerous circuits at Manchester all of one Saturday afternoon. The controller was sending them alternatively right hand then left hand, to share the noise around for those on the ground!
I do remember many years ago (at least 15, maybe more) a large Airbus (A300?) doing numerous circuits at Manchester all of one Saturday afternoon. The controller was sending them alternatively right hand then left hand, to share the noise around for those on the ground!
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For most airlines it was in the mid 90's. To avoid base training (circuits) the airline, and specific fleet, as well as the simulator needs to be ZFT (Zero Flight Time) approved. The trainee must also have a minimum level of experience, and the instructor must have ZFT training.
I was involved in getting CAA ZFT approval for the BA 747 "classic" fleet in 1995. We had to be observed by CAA inspectors both on the sim and on the line. It was a steep leaning curve but eventually it worked well (although not so much fun for the trainers).
When I left BA in 2002 and went to work for a cargo airline, that airline did not have ZFT approval so once again I had the pleasure of bashing the circuit.
Even airlines such as BA will have to carry out base training if they recruit pilots without the minimum ZFT requirements (from memory....1500 hours??).
Base training was probably the most fun that a trainer could have, although it's expensive, and environmentally unfriendly.
I was involved in getting CAA ZFT approval for the BA 747 "classic" fleet in 1995. We had to be observed by CAA inspectors both on the sim and on the line. It was a steep leaning curve but eventually it worked well (although not so much fun for the trainers).
When I left BA in 2002 and went to work for a cargo airline, that airline did not have ZFT approval so once again I had the pleasure of bashing the circuit.
Even airlines such as BA will have to carry out base training if they recruit pilots without the minimum ZFT requirements (from memory....1500 hours??).
Base training was probably the most fun that a trainer could have, although it's expensive, and environmentally unfriendly.
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Can't exactly remember how long ago but a cargo airline was doing base training at Almeria using B727s. Sat on the 1st floor open air terrace sharing a bottle of wine watching touch and go, missed approaches to the dead side and full stop landings with taxi and go again for about 90 minutes. The noise hacked a lot of punters off but I loved it. 
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The A.300 you may be thinking of was on Saturday 14th December 1985.
It was in fact KLM A.310 PH-AGD and it performed no less than 22 ILS approaches during 1620 and 1805 that day.
It was in fact KLM A.310 PH-AGD and it performed no less than 22 ILS approaches during 1620 and 1805 that day.
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If the pilot under training does not have the required experience then base training is still required Therefore the 200 hour cadets joining BA, Ryanair, EasyJet etc will not be ZFT qualified.
Copied from an old PPRuNe post;
Copied from an old PPRuNe post;
FCL.730.A Specific requirements for pilots undertaking a zero flight time type rating (ZFTT) course — aeroplanes
(a) A pilot undertaking instruction at a ZFTT course shall have completed, on a multi-pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, at least:
(1) if an FFS qualified to level CG, C or interim C is used during the course, 1 500 hours flight time or 250 route sectors;
(2) if an FFS qualified to level DG or D is used during the course, 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors.
(b) When a pilot is changing from a turbo-prop to a turbo-jet aeroplane or from a turbo-jet to a turbo-prop aeroplane, additional simulator training shall be required.
(a) A pilot undertaking instruction at a ZFTT course shall have completed, on a multi-pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers, at least:
(1) if an FFS qualified to level CG, C or interim C is used during the course, 1 500 hours flight time or 250 route sectors;
(2) if an FFS qualified to level DG or D is used during the course, 500 hours flight time or 100 route sectors.
(b) When a pilot is changing from a turbo-prop to a turbo-jet aeroplane or from a turbo-jet to a turbo-prop aeroplane, additional simulator training shall be required.
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The A.300 you may be thinking of was on Saturday 14th December 1985.
It was in fact KLM A.310 PH-AGD and it performed no less than 22 ILS approaches during 1620 and 1805 that day.
It was in fact KLM A.310 PH-AGD and it performed no less than 22 ILS approaches during 1620 and 1805 that day.
Ryanair used to do them at Castle Don. in recent years.
Teesside used to be a favourite, and this traffic would be welcomed and valued by them now if it was still available.
No extended downwind legs needed these days to sequence with other traffic, just the risk of tumbleweed FOD...
Teesside used to be a favourite, and this traffic would be welcomed and valued by them now if it was still available.
No extended downwind legs needed these days to sequence with other traffic, just the risk of tumbleweed FOD...
In the early 70's I saw Vanguards, newly acquired by Merpati doing circuits with at least one prop feathered.
Also saw Viscounts in Austrian livery with two feathered, which seems brave, with hindsight. Even as a kid, it impressed as something that seemed a bit daring.
Also saw Viscounts in Austrian livery with two feathered, which seems brave, with hindsight. Even as a kid, it impressed as something that seemed a bit daring.
Bedford
.....BOAC 707 bashing the circuit at Bedford, of all places.
Also used for training by the RAF. I recall doing practice ILS approaches and circuits in the early '70s in a Vickers Varsity, of all things!
I recall doing practice ILS approaches and circuits in the early '70s in a Vickers Varsity, of all things!
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I'm fairly sure that "Castle Don" is still used for circuits by RyanAir aircraft (unless they've stopped in the last few weeks, last time I was passing by).
Airbanda,
Let me check I got that right. Are you saying M O'L diverted a Ryanair a/c to do a touch-and-go on the motorway, in order to drop his son off near the Download festival?
Let me check I got that right. Are you saying M O'L diverted a Ryanair a/c to do a touch-and-go on the motorway, in order to drop his son off near the Download festival?
Last edited by Chris Scott; 15th Oct 2013 at 14:42.
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