Navigation System on Bristol Britannia
Mention of Consul brought back memories. Even though the standard NATO phonetic alphabet was well established long before I started nav training, Bush Mills (c/s MWN) was still invariably referred to as Mike Willie Nan. And if my memory of the morse code is now a little shaky, I am sure I will know that FRQ is dit dit dah dit/dit dah dit/ dah dah dit dah to my dying day because of the number of times I tuned in Ploneis.
(Oh and Stavanger was LEC, as I recall)
I never flew on Brits other than as pax, but on Victors, once over the sea we had even fewer navaids. Our H2S radar was of no assistance once out of range of land, the Green Satin tended to trip out over water, so we were left with astro and not much else. On one occasion, however, two Victors (four navs between us) took a Jaguar across the pond and we had the luxury of asking the Jaguar pilot for fixes from his INS
How embarrassing
(Oh and Stavanger was LEC, as I recall)
I never flew on Brits other than as pax, but on Victors, once over the sea we had even fewer navaids. Our H2S radar was of no assistance once out of range of land, the Green Satin tended to trip out over water, so we were left with astro and not much else. On one occasion, however, two Victors (four navs between us) took a Jaguar across the pond and we had the luxury of asking the Jaguar pilot for fixes from his INS
How embarrassing
As a matter of interest when did airlines cease to require navigators? I always thought that it was in the late 60s with the introduction of INS. There is an interesting Youtube video circa 1969 about Pan Am's first flight over the north pole using INS.
Going through Flight International archives I see that TWA eliminated navigators in 1962 and replied upon Doppler. (I assume that unlike Pan Am & BOAC TWA navigators weren't pilots at the bottom of the seniority list.)
1962 | 2315 | Flight Archive
The article says that at that stage it was only TWA relying on Doppler. Were other carriers more conservative or is there more to it than that?
Going through Flight International archives I see that TWA eliminated navigators in 1962 and replied upon Doppler. (I assume that unlike Pan Am & BOAC TWA navigators weren't pilots at the bottom of the seniority list.)
1962 | 2315 | Flight Archive
The article says that at that stage it was only TWA relying on Doppler. Were other carriers more conservative or is there more to it than that?
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe that TA used a dual Bendix doppler backed up with a Edo Loran A that was used for doppler updates when required. Just like Pan Am did a few years later. Pan Am did not adopt INS until the 747, inspite of this promo video. Instead they relied on the doppler and loran with appropriate crew training. The the crew was not nav qualified they used a 2nd or 3rd officer that was a designated navigator
Spooky 2
INS came in with the 747. The VC10s had dual doppler, LORAN and a periscopic sextant, I think 707s were the same but without Doppler. BOAC/BA started retrofitting VC10s and 707s with dual INS so that navigation could be phased out sometime in 1974. Up to that time all co-pilots had to be dual qualified as pilots and navigators - we did leg and leg about between sitting at the nav table and co-piloting. I cannot remember when we then reduced from 4 man to 3 man cockpit crews, probably not long afterwards - it is all lost in the mists of time!
INS came in with the 747. The VC10s had dual doppler, LORAN and a periscopic sextant, I think 707s were the same but without Doppler. BOAC/BA started retrofitting VC10s and 707s with dual INS so that navigation could be phased out sometime in 1974. Up to that time all co-pilots had to be dual qualified as pilots and navigators - we did leg and leg about between sitting at the nav table and co-piloting. I cannot remember when we then reduced from 4 man to 3 man cockpit crews, probably not long afterwards - it is all lost in the mists of time!
Britannia Polar Flights
Boscombes XX367 used to do polar flights once a year for students on a specialist course at Cranwell if i remember rightly, up to the early eighties when she was disposed of. Must be someone on here who remembers the detail and the NAV kit used ??
In September 1973 I flew a Britannia from Quebec to Resolute Bay where the Smiths Flight System proved to be somewhat confusing. At that time the magnetic north pole was just 80nm from RB, resulting in almost 90 degrees of variation. During an ILS approach to land on the northerly runway the glide slope was horizontal (where the localised should have been and visa versa). Low cloud, variable decision heights due to passing icebergs and the prospect of landing on a rough gravel runway were not conducive to a relaxed flight deck! Next day the flight to Yellowknife was like a walk in the park.
XM496 at Thule. The dome housing the doppler radar can be seen under the fuselage between the main landing gear.
Resolute Bay shortly before departure.
There is an interesting Youtube video circa 1969 about Pan Am's first flight over the north pole using INS.
Thanks for posting that. Definitely worth watching all four videos, for anyone interested in navigation. There's a nice shot of the INS transiting the pole and I enjoyed listening to the captain talking to Ft. Nelson Radio, one of my old stomping grounds.
I suppose the passengers tolerated the extra 17% flight time, for the novelty of flying over the pole. The Great Circle route to Seattle barely crosses the Arctic Circle:
Last edited by India Four Two; 13th Sep 2013 at 11:57.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Knole Somerset
Age: 78
Posts: 123
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Britannia Navigation
Great pics Brakedwell. As a ex 511 navigator it was really down memory lane! Wonderfull aircraft from our point of view,go anywhere,plenty of fuel and once the smart VC10 came into operation great routes. Happy days
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Doppler antenna
The flush doppler anntenna can seen on the bottom of the 707 fuselage just aft of the radome but forward of the NLG. I'm trying to find a picture of such but no luck so far.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Age: 80
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And, just to even things up, I was on 511. Not that there was much inter-squadron rivalry, especially as we shared the pooled aircraft fleet. But I must say those pictures of 496 at Thule show just what an elegant aircraft she was. I have sat in 496 at Kemble in recent years wondering just how, as a 20-something year old navigator, I had the confidence and nerve to guide that lovely craft over oceans far and wide. Of course, the avionics fit was, by modern standards, pretty dire. But we had astro and, as a quick glance at tonight's clear night sky confirms, they're all still out there .........
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Manchester
Age: 63
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robert Jones (#19) you are quite correct re JED Williams, he navigated a Britannia from JFK to Tel Aviv non stop by flying in the Jet Stream and the flight was covered in a Flight magazine article here. http://propspistonsandoldairliners.*...britannia.html
I have been fascinated by this flight for many years and would like to see a copy of "The Green Book" referred to in the article compiled from very precise recoding and analysis whilst route proving. Any response from Nav's re this article would be much appreciated. JED Williams left EL AL to become Managing Director of Britannia Airways. he also wrote a book called "The Operation of Airliners"
I have been fascinated by this flight for many years and would like to see a copy of "The Green Book" referred to in the article compiled from very precise recoding and analysis whilst route proving. Any response from Nav's re this article would be much appreciated. JED Williams left EL AL to become Managing Director of Britannia Airways. he also wrote a book called "The Operation of Airliners"
