Convair 880
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CV880 Handling Qualities
to: IM Esperto
I agree - the CV880 could be greased on like oiled silk if you understood that right up to touch down sink rate was controlled by power.
Regretably many pilots found this difficult to comprehend.
Hauling back on the yoke to check sink rate in the flare just increased the rate of descent . Fortunately the 880 with a separate main gear Spar could take the punishment.
I agree - the CV880 could be greased on like oiled silk if you understood that right up to touch down sink rate was controlled by power.
Regretably many pilots found this difficult to comprehend.
Hauling back on the yoke to check sink rate in the flare just increased the rate of descent . Fortunately the 880 with a separate main gear Spar could take the punishment.
Last edited by Capt. Crosswind; 1st May 2002 at 08:16.
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Captain Crosswind,
You are one hundred percent correct in what you say about landing the 880. The technique had to be learned and was simply " flare " first and then reduce the power. If you did it by reducing the power first, she would not respond to any amount of back-stick and would hit like a ton of bricks. Do it correctly and she would always reward you with that click, click, click.
Regards,
KIFIS
You are one hundred percent correct in what you say about landing the 880. The technique had to be learned and was simply " flare " first and then reduce the power. If you did it by reducing the power first, she would not respond to any amount of back-stick and would hit like a ton of bricks. Do it correctly and she would always reward you with that click, click, click.
Regards,
KIFIS
I used to share the sky with Spantax "Coronados" around eghh back in the 70's. I never worried about not being able to see them because you could see the black cloud of smoke long before you saw the aeroplane. They invariable produced more smoke when tyres burst on the runway as they tried to stop. (before 26/08 was lengthened). They also used to take off on the shorter 35 as it was closer to the apron. I never saw any other airliner do that.
It would be great to see one flying again as it was the first jet airliner I ever flew in, operated by Air France.
It would be great to see one flying again as it was the first jet airliner I ever flew in, operated by Air France.
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CV880 Handling Qualities
To KIFIS
Thanks for your comment.
The convair engineers must have anticipated firm landings when they designed the acft with a MLG Spar to take the punishment.
Although all the Convairs may have been designed this way, I'm not sure as I regretably never had the opportunity to fly the 440.
Like its big brother the 880 those who flew the 440 sing its praise in song & verse. And like the 880 I hear it was not any easy acft to master & sorted out the pilots from the airframe drivers.
Thanks for your comment.
The convair engineers must have anticipated firm landings when they designed the acft with a MLG Spar to take the punishment.
Although all the Convairs may have been designed this way, I'm not sure as I regretably never had the opportunity to fly the 440.
Like its big brother the 880 those who flew the 440 sing its praise in song & verse. And like the 880 I hear it was not any easy acft to master & sorted out the pilots from the airframe drivers.
Last edited by Capt. Crosswind; 1st May 2002 at 08:19.
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CV880 Handling Qualities
To: I.M.Esperto
I'm interested in your opinion on power handling thru' the flare out.
This was always a matter of debate, despite the fact that those who did not agree with the technique ( as described by KIFIS) regularly did clangers . Ah yes but they touched down on the
1000 foot point , they would proudly proclaim! ( Even when landing on a 10,000 ft runway !! And a smooth touchdown would have been made at 1200 / 1300 ft)
I'm interested in your opinion on power handling thru' the flare out.
This was always a matter of debate, despite the fact that those who did not agree with the technique ( as described by KIFIS) regularly did clangers . Ah yes but they touched down on the
1000 foot point , they would proudly proclaim! ( Even when landing on a 10,000 ft runway !! And a smooth touchdown would have been made at 1200 / 1300 ft)
Capt. Crosswind:
I do know that NASA used the 990 to test the Shuttle maingear and tires, with a seperate gear mounted between the normal bogies. Some pictures can be found on the Nasa site.
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/LSRA/index.html
Also the pilots train their landing skills on converted Gulfstream business jets if I remember correctly. Still searching for a link that has some more info on this.
I do know that NASA used the 990 to test the Shuttle maingear and tires, with a seperate gear mounted between the normal bogies. Some pictures can be found on the Nasa site.
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/gallery/photo/LSRA/index.html
Also the pilots train their landing skills on converted Gulfstream business jets if I remember correctly. Still searching for a link that has some more info on this.
Iconoclast
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Conflict of opinion?????
I can’t dispute the material shown in the NASA picture file showing the tire being tested but I believe the shuttle landing gear itself came from a Douglas DC-9. I believe based on the Michelin advertising lately the test was to certify new tires for the shuttle. But then again other experts have proven me wrong in other areas.
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NASA & CV990
Thanks Jhieminga & Lou
It is easy to see how the 'CV880 training for Shuttle pilots' story started. I guess it grew from the Landing Gear testing - by the time it got around the bar twice it became a flight training operation.
New Subject:
I thought my previous post re power handling in the flare might
have flushed out the opposing camp?
Any takers for this debate ?
It is easy to see how the 'CV880 training for Shuttle pilots' story started. I guess it grew from the Landing Gear testing - by the time it got around the bar twice it became a flight training operation.
New Subject:
I thought my previous post re power handling in the flare might
have flushed out the opposing camp?
Any takers for this debate ?
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Captain Crosswind - I has been many years since I flew it, but I seem to recall closing the throttles when flaring. Company policy was to use this technique, and I do recall that it gave the proverbial greas job very often.
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Lu Zukerman :
Lu, On an 880 pre-departure walkaround I was always pleased to see those words on the main wheel tyres that said " 200 mph ". Just seemed sort of comforting which I suppose is understandable when one considers that at MTOW plus a 10 knot tail wind ( which was allowable ) the 880 was approaching 200 mph during the rotation phase. This is one heck of a speed to be
lifting off.
Regards,
KIFIS
Lu, On an 880 pre-departure walkaround I was always pleased to see those words on the main wheel tyres that said " 200 mph ". Just seemed sort of comforting which I suppose is understandable when one considers that at MTOW plus a 10 knot tail wind ( which was allowable ) the 880 was approaching 200 mph during the rotation phase. This is one heck of a speed to be
lifting off.
Regards,
KIFIS
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NASA shuttle trainers
Is that the operation out of El Paso ? Several T-38s and G3s there. Google found this photo http://www.gulfstream.com/products/s...a/nf_index.htm
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CV880/990
Thanks Jhieminga & Paper Tiger
So NASA uses the G3 to train for the shuttle, which shoots down the bar room myth perpetrated by CV880 pilots that it was the Convair. Seemed a plausible story & even though it isn't true it should be.
So NASA uses the G3 to train for the shuttle, which shoots down the bar room myth perpetrated by CV880 pilots that it was the Convair. Seemed a plausible story & even though it isn't true it should be.
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CV880 Handling Qualities
To I.M.Esperto
Thanks for comment.
Yes, assuming good conditions a judicious reduction of power in the flare out was the accepted technique. Think of it as a smooth power reduction to reach flight idle just as the wheels make contact.
However if one encountered wind shear/sink in the flare it required a momentary increase in power to check the sink rate.
then continue the power reduction normally.
If you continued to reduce power and apply back pressure on the yoke you hit hard.
Thanks for comment.
Yes, assuming good conditions a judicious reduction of power in the flare out was the accepted technique. Think of it as a smooth power reduction to reach flight idle just as the wheels make contact.
However if one encountered wind shear/sink in the flare it required a momentary increase in power to check the sink rate.
then continue the power reduction normally.
If you continued to reduce power and apply back pressure on the yoke you hit hard.
The Reverend
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Capt. Crosswind, in regard to the "bar room myth", I was involved in training a NASA crew on the CV880. Way back in the early seventies. Don't know what they used later but it certainly was not a bar room myth in those days.