How do you decontaminate a radioactive V bomber?
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How do you decontaminate a radioactive V bomber?
Just curious having noted from the recent book 'Out Of The Blue' that 2 x Victor SR's were used for radio active cloud penetration/sampling.
Last edited by Prangster; 17th Dec 2012 at 17:44.
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Er...wash it? How else?
The "V bomber" itself won't be "radioactive", it will just have contamination on it.
OK, you don't use a geiger counter to check for dirty spots when you wash a car, you just look for them. Some bits that won't come clean will need replacing but otherwise its much the same.
The "V bomber" itself won't be "radioactive", it will just have contamination on it.
OK, you don't use a geiger counter to check for dirty spots when you wash a car, you just look for them. Some bits that won't come clean will need replacing but otherwise its much the same.
Last edited by Agaricus bisporus; 17th Dec 2012 at 17:47.
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Radioactive cockpits!
Forget the V-Bombers used for the A bomb test, I believe all V-Bomber cockpits are now "out of bounds" because of the (very slight) radioactivity from the luminous instruments and Health and Safety brigade now ban visitors from entering them.
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I'd have thought the V force was built well into the age of electrically illuminated instruments. Certainly this fatuous bolleaux has been associated with some WWII types, the Duxford Lanc being one.
It is deeply depressing that people so fundamentally ignorant of the facts can be allowed to make such idiotic decisions, Beta radiation is stopped by a sheet of paper or a few centimetres of air. No way it can get through the glass face of an instrument.
Who gives these oxygen thieves their worthless jobs?
It is deeply depressing that people so fundamentally ignorant of the facts can be allowed to make such idiotic decisions, Beta radiation is stopped by a sheet of paper or a few centimetres of air. No way it can get through the glass face of an instrument.
Who gives these oxygen thieves their worthless jobs?
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I'm not qualified to comment on the main thrust of this thread but, for the sake of accuracy, I should point out that A B's description of the penetrating power of beta radiation is wrong. It is alpha radiation that can be stopped by a sheet of paper or a few centimetres of air. By comparison, it would require a few millimetres of aluminium, for instance, to stop beta radiation.
SFS
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Well, as I've been caught in flagrante spouting bolleaux here is a clip from the dreaded HSE on the very subject to make amends.
VINTAGE AIRCRAFT RESTORATION
Recent inspection activity in the aerospace and industrial radiography industry has revealed that those engaged in the restoration of vintage civil and military aircraft are largely unaware of the radiological risks involved in their work.
Many aircraft, but mainly those built before circa 1950, have instrument dials luminised with radium paint. Dose rates on contact with these instruments can sometimes exceed 200 μSv h-1 β/γ (e.g. Seafire fuel gauge) and dose rates in the pilot's position may be as high as 15 μSv h-1 β/γ (e.g. North American Harvard). If the instruments are taken apart there may also be a significant contamination risk and, in enclosed cockpits or storage areas, radon exposure may be significant.
A risk of significant radiation exposure to those restoring, maintaining and flying such aircraft, and those visiting museum cockpit exhibitions, therefore exists although, for the most part, those carrying out such activities are unaware of those risks.
The HSE will be exploring ways to further publicise and research the problem. In the meantime the following steps can be taken to reduce likely exposures to levels which are as low as reasonably practicable. In all cases, however, the advice of a suitable radiation protection adviser should be sought.
1. A risk assessment should be undertaken and a radiation survey of the instruments and cockpit should be performed. Where dose rates in excess of, say, 2.5 μSvh-1 β/γ exist at the pilot's position, steps should be taken to reduce radiation levels and/or prohibit access by members of the public. Simple measures such as replacing the instrument glass with a thicker variety (provided there is no likelihood of contamination), or the replacement of switches etc. with newer types, may be reasonably practicable.
2. When not in use or installed in the aircraft, instruments should be stored in sealed plastic bags. Checks for loose contamination should be undertaken when the instrument is overhauled or fitted in the aircraft. Where large numbers of instruments are stored together checks on radon levels will be appropriate.
3. When maintaining or overhauling instruments care should be taken to avoid the spread of contamination or possible personal contamination. They should only be handled when wearing appropriate gloves and, where there is evidence of paint flaking, a simple dust mask should also be worn.
4. If it is decided to replace the instrument and to dispose of the radium luminised item, a specialist company must be used for the disposal of radioactive waste. There are only a small number of such companies operating in the UK, these include: Safeguard International Ltd (01235 435795) and Active Collection Bureau (01795 437001). There are currently some difficulties over the disposal of radium in the UK and some delay in disposing of the item may be experienced, and it may be necessary to store the items in the meantime.
Recent inspection activity in the aerospace and industrial radiography industry has revealed that those engaged in the restoration of vintage civil and military aircraft are largely unaware of the radiological risks involved in their work.
Many aircraft, but mainly those built before circa 1950, have instrument dials luminised with radium paint. Dose rates on contact with these instruments can sometimes exceed 200 μSv h-1 β/γ (e.g. Seafire fuel gauge) and dose rates in the pilot's position may be as high as 15 μSv h-1 β/γ (e.g. North American Harvard). If the instruments are taken apart there may also be a significant contamination risk and, in enclosed cockpits or storage areas, radon exposure may be significant.
A risk of significant radiation exposure to those restoring, maintaining and flying such aircraft, and those visiting museum cockpit exhibitions, therefore exists although, for the most part, those carrying out such activities are unaware of those risks.
The HSE will be exploring ways to further publicise and research the problem. In the meantime the following steps can be taken to reduce likely exposures to levels which are as low as reasonably practicable. In all cases, however, the advice of a suitable radiation protection adviser should be sought.
1. A risk assessment should be undertaken and a radiation survey of the instruments and cockpit should be performed. Where dose rates in excess of, say, 2.5 μSvh-1 β/γ exist at the pilot's position, steps should be taken to reduce radiation levels and/or prohibit access by members of the public. Simple measures such as replacing the instrument glass with a thicker variety (provided there is no likelihood of contamination), or the replacement of switches etc. with newer types, may be reasonably practicable.
2. When not in use or installed in the aircraft, instruments should be stored in sealed plastic bags. Checks for loose contamination should be undertaken when the instrument is overhauled or fitted in the aircraft. Where large numbers of instruments are stored together checks on radon levels will be appropriate.
3. When maintaining or overhauling instruments care should be taken to avoid the spread of contamination or possible personal contamination. They should only be handled when wearing appropriate gloves and, where there is evidence of paint flaking, a simple dust mask should also be worn.
4. If it is decided to replace the instrument and to dispose of the radium luminised item, a specialist company must be used for the disposal of radioactive waste. There are only a small number of such companies operating in the UK, these include: Safeguard International Ltd (01235 435795) and Active Collection Bureau (01795 437001). There are currently some difficulties over the disposal of radium in the UK and some delay in disposing of the item may be experienced, and it may be necessary to store the items in the meantime.
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Don't plant your bum on any Cornish granite then. Amazing how many civilisations around
the world have survived and thrived while living amongst what H&S would have you believe
is dangerous doses of radiation/radon gas.
The radiation level on wartime instrument panels causing cancer came via the fact that the
instrument makers used to lick their brushes when painting the dials/hands/numbers etc.
Mouth cancers were not uncommon with such close contact.
Hardly surprising under the circumstances!
Example
"In Colorado and other Rocky Mountain states (Wyoming, New Mexico, Utah), where the uranium content in soil is abnormally high, and where the high altitude reduces the amount of air above that shields people from cosmic rays, natural radiation is nearly twice the national average; but in Florida, where the altitude is minimal and the soil is deficient in radioactive materials, natural radiation is 15% below the national average. Thus, the radiation exposures in the highly publicized incidents are about equal to the extra radiation you get from spending five days in Colorado. Of course, millions of people spend their whole lives in Colorado, and as it turns out, the cancer rate in that state is 35% below the national average. Leukemia, probably the most radiation-specific type of cancer, occurs at only 86% of the national average rate in Colorado, and at 61% of that rate in the other high-radiation Rocky Mountain states. This is a clear demonstration that radiation is not one of the important causes of cancer."
Natural Radiation is just that - natural. Jobsworths in H&S should justify their draconian regulations IMHO
the world have survived and thrived while living amongst what H&S would have you believe
is dangerous doses of radiation/radon gas.
The radiation level on wartime instrument panels causing cancer came via the fact that the
instrument makers used to lick their brushes when painting the dials/hands/numbers etc.
Mouth cancers were not uncommon with such close contact.
Hardly surprising under the circumstances!
Example
"In Colorado and other Rocky Mountain states (Wyoming, New Mexico, Utah), where the uranium content in soil is abnormally high, and where the high altitude reduces the amount of air above that shields people from cosmic rays, natural radiation is nearly twice the national average; but in Florida, where the altitude is minimal and the soil is deficient in radioactive materials, natural radiation is 15% below the national average. Thus, the radiation exposures in the highly publicized incidents are about equal to the extra radiation you get from spending five days in Colorado. Of course, millions of people spend their whole lives in Colorado, and as it turns out, the cancer rate in that state is 35% below the national average. Leukemia, probably the most radiation-specific type of cancer, occurs at only 86% of the national average rate in Colorado, and at 61% of that rate in the other high-radiation Rocky Mountain states. This is a clear demonstration that radiation is not one of the important causes of cancer."
Natural Radiation is just that - natural. Jobsworths in H&S should justify their draconian regulations IMHO
Last edited by aviate1138; 18th Dec 2012 at 09:27. Reason: words
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Radium 226 was used in radioluminescent paint until the 1970's. Ra-226 is an alpha emitter. As StainesFS rightly points out, a sheet of bog roll can stop alpha radiation.
An issue with Ra-226 in cockpits is that, although alpha radiation is stopped by pretty much everything, older paint formulations tend to flake and become dusty. If the dust is breathed in, then you have energetic alpha particles in direct contact with the lungs, with the associated genetic damage.
Illuminated dials are behind glass, so they're pretty safe for everyone except dial restorers. The threat is from unprotected paint on surfaces such as switches.
The half life of Ra-226 is around 1600 years. On consumer products, for a time Ra-228 was added, a beta-emitter with a half-life of under 6 years. It made dials look much brighter for their first 5 years of life.
But for big bits of tin flying through radioactive clouds, as already stated the solution is simply to hose the things down. Hosed down a couple of buildings last year for exactly that reason.
The US used Sr-90 in paint for deck markers for a while. Sr acts like Ca, so binds with bones. Of course, as with pretty much everything else, the biological half-life (the time any particular atom remains part of a human body) is around 70 days, so a single exposure is unlikely to do any harm.
An issue with Ra-226 in cockpits is that, although alpha radiation is stopped by pretty much everything, older paint formulations tend to flake and become dusty. If the dust is breathed in, then you have energetic alpha particles in direct contact with the lungs, with the associated genetic damage.
Illuminated dials are behind glass, so they're pretty safe for everyone except dial restorers. The threat is from unprotected paint on surfaces such as switches.
The half life of Ra-226 is around 1600 years. On consumer products, for a time Ra-228 was added, a beta-emitter with a half-life of under 6 years. It made dials look much brighter for their first 5 years of life.
But for big bits of tin flying through radioactive clouds, as already stated the solution is simply to hose the things down. Hosed down a couple of buildings last year for exactly that reason.
The US used Sr-90 in paint for deck markers for a while. Sr acts like Ca, so binds with bones. Of course, as with pretty much everything else, the biological half-life (the time any particular atom remains part of a human body) is around 70 days, so a single exposure is unlikely to do any harm.
Last edited by Bushfiva; 21st Dec 2012 at 02:18. Reason: Removed pointlessly aggressive phrase
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Many years ago, working in a North African country, now under new managment , flew two trips a day for a month from a country further south ( with an extra G similar to Guy Gibson`s dog ) 40 tons a time ( B707 ) of uranium ore up to desert city. As far as i know i do not glow in the dark.....
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At Finningley we just used to wash the beasts - by hand. Mind you we wore these funny dosimeters things, which were collected and recorded after the event. Oh we got rubber gloves and were issued with clean denims afterwards. (I still glow in the dark) 
Interesting how an aircraft could become contaminated. Norseman CF-GSK
In a conversation with Bob before his death, he informed me that GSK had been used to transport pitchblend drill core for several years while working for Uranium Corp. Bob stated he was 99% sure the airplane was written off because of radioactive contamination of the airframe.
On September 12, 1962, DOT Canada notified that the aircraft is a complete write-off. Details not available. Robert H. Noorduyn suspects that the aircraft was found to be contaminated with a radioactive substance.
Last edited by pigboat; 19th Dec 2012 at 16:12.
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Out of interest, didn't they use some Canberras for cloud sampling too?
Some years ago I was involved at RAF Aldergrove/BIA with the selling/leasing of some more MoD land to the airport. Talking to an aged Irish fireman about various sorts of contamination, he recalled when the sampling Canberras returned there (23 MU there was the Canberra MU) for "decontamination".
"And how exactly did you do that?" sez I
"Sure we just towed 'em onto the grass yonder, and just hosed 'em down!"
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Mummy always said eating paint was bad for me.
Those people need to get out more, they have far to much time on their hands dreaming up better ways to panic the community.
Radon gas, will indeed collect in significant amounts inside enclosed, 'UNVENTILATED' spaces.......solution, simply open the windows as several local authorities recommend in areas were ground radon emissions have been documented.
As for Instrument dials making people glow in the dark, as has been pointed out earlier, considerable amounts of the substance would need to come into close contact, i.e. licking paint brushes, for it to be of any significant danger and those involved in maintainance on these legacy instruments are well aware of the problem and take the required precautions, the simple expedient of spraying the face with a clear water based plastic coating to seal the original paint would do the job.
Seriously though this subject was aired in depth last year regarding minute 'TRACE' readings currently being washed up on a beach the results of disposal of instrument dials in the local area, the same scare mongering went on then by people who by virtue of there position should have known better but could not resist the tempation of getting there names in lights.
Radon gas, will indeed collect in significant amounts inside enclosed, 'UNVENTILATED' spaces.......solution, simply open the windows as several local authorities recommend in areas were ground radon emissions have been documented.
As for Instrument dials making people glow in the dark, as has been pointed out earlier, considerable amounts of the substance would need to come into close contact, i.e. licking paint brushes, for it to be of any significant danger and those involved in maintainance on these legacy instruments are well aware of the problem and take the required precautions, the simple expedient of spraying the face with a clear water based plastic coating to seal the original paint would do the job.
Seriously though this subject was aired in depth last year regarding minute 'TRACE' readings currently being washed up on a beach the results of disposal of instrument dials in the local area, the same scare mongering went on then by people who by virtue of there position should have known better but could not resist the tempation of getting there names in lights.
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Still got the remnants of a kit, drawn from stores some forty years ago, for redoing instrument needles that had lost their luster. The vial on the left contains the varnish, centre the radioactive whatever, and right a diluting solvent. Used it to paint the hands on my new kitchen clock a couple of months ago - doesn't 'alf glow well in the dark.
As quite correctly stated, the contamination risk is from materiel producing Alpha particels. This can just be washed off and crews were encouraced to fly through likely looking rain clouds to save the ground crew a job on return. On the ground, a decontamination process would take place which would be effective at removing most of the contamination.
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 22nd Dec 2012 at 02:49.