hadley page herald and f27
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Mod 1860 reduced the cruise EGT to 680c rather than the 730c (720?) for the un modded engine.
In my two years on the aircraft it was rare to see an aircraft with two engines with the same spec.
In my two years on the aircraft it was rare to see an aircraft with two engines with the same spec.
I had a cockpit trip on a Viscount many years ago and much use was made of the 'fuel trimmers'. What were they?
Vickers Viscount Network Newsletter May 2012
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HI JammedStab.
Well it was 30 years ago!!
I know nothing about the Dart SOP's for the HS748, I'm refering to the engine in the FK27-200 which if memory serves me correctly, was the 528-7E variant.
This SOP was used by two different UK operators of the FK27-200 in those days.
Nice to reminise though!
Well it was 30 years ago!!
I know nothing about the Dart SOP's for the HS748, I'm refering to the engine in the FK27-200 which if memory serves me correctly, was the 528-7E variant.
This SOP was used by two different UK operators of the FK27-200 in those days.
Nice to reminise though!
I flew the F-27, the Fairchild version, for awhile and this thread brings back a few memories. Re the crosswind. I thought it handled crosswinds pretty well. We used to regularly experience winds of 30kt at one stop, occasionally up to 35kt, but that was pushing it and the runway had to be bare and dry to handle that kind of crosswind. Every autumn we usually experienced pneumatic leaks - primairly from the nosewheel steering system - but after a few days, maintenance would generally clear it up. When it was extremely cold there was really little you could do though, just hope the compressors were up to the task. We delayed flights when the surface temperature hit -40, a not uncommon occurrence in Western Labrador.
With reference to the split torque values. One of our ground instructors was a gentleman by the name of Eric Appleton, an ex-RR engineer. As Eric explained it, when the Gulfstream G159 entered the corporate scene most of the pilots had stepped up from the DC-3. They were used to looking at all the needles in approximately the same places on the engine instruments and when they began to see divergent values on the torque meters, they were quite upset. How can one engine put out rated power at say, 385 psi while the other required 405 psi torque to do the same job. Something was suspect. What RR did, they looked at engine performance in the test cell and paired those that had the same or nearly the same torque values at rated power. Not only that, they jiggled the serial numbers so the pairs were sequential, thus a G1 would have two sequential engines having identical or nearly identical engine parameters. When the F-27 began to be used by corporate operators Rolls simply continued the practice. The fun began when a loaner engine was required and the torque values no longer matched.
With reference to the split torque values. One of our ground instructors was a gentleman by the name of Eric Appleton, an ex-RR engineer. As Eric explained it, when the Gulfstream G159 entered the corporate scene most of the pilots had stepped up from the DC-3. They were used to looking at all the needles in approximately the same places on the engine instruments and when they began to see divergent values on the torque meters, they were quite upset. How can one engine put out rated power at say, 385 psi while the other required 405 psi torque to do the same job. Something was suspect. What RR did, they looked at engine performance in the test cell and paired those that had the same or nearly the same torque values at rated power. Not only that, they jiggled the serial numbers so the pairs were sequential, thus a G1 would have two sequential engines having identical or nearly identical engine parameters. When the F-27 began to be used by corporate operators Rolls simply continued the practice. The fun began when a loaner engine was required and the torque values no longer matched.
Last edited by pigboat; 10th Nov 2012 at 23:13.
Arrghh...the dreaded fuel trimmers.
First Officers were made with left hands so that they could constantly trim the engines.
Basically the Dart fuel control unit (FCU) supplied the req fuel to the power plant, however to maintain the req Jet PipeTemp/Turbine Gas Temp one had to adjust the FuelFlow for changes in atmospheric conditions..eg flying in and out of cloud or changes in OAT. This was achieved by making fine adjustments to the FF with the Trimmers.
In basic language the FCU set 95% of FF and the FO adjusted/set the other 5%
So power settings were RPM and JPT or TGT depending on model of Dart.
As an aside as I recall the original Dart put out around 1200 hp and this was improved over the model range to around 2400 hp due in the main by improvements in the ability of the turbines to accept a higher temp.
Emeritus
First Officers were made with left hands so that they could constantly trim the engines.
Basically the Dart fuel control unit (FCU) supplied the req fuel to the power plant, however to maintain the req Jet PipeTemp/Turbine Gas Temp one had to adjust the FuelFlow for changes in atmospheric conditions..eg flying in and out of cloud or changes in OAT. This was achieved by making fine adjustments to the FF with the Trimmers.
In basic language the FCU set 95% of FF and the FO adjusted/set the other 5%
So power settings were RPM and JPT or TGT depending on model of Dart.
As an aside as I recall the original Dart put out around 1200 hp and this was improved over the model range to around 2400 hp due in the main by improvements in the ability of the turbines to accept a higher temp.
Emeritus
Reading back through some previous posts I am suprised to read that the starts sometimes req metering the HP cock in European climes.
In Australia it was common practice particularly in the outback in summertime with temps often up around the low 40's C.
Most times one was using ships battery so Very conscious of not having to abort the start and having the temp needle hovering around the red line.
One tended to use a lot of Water Meth too.
Took off once at Tennant Creek south of Darwin in a Viscount. OAT was ISA +25. Could see the W/M quantity guages dropping during t/o and I'm sure I could hear it gurgling down the pipes!
Emeritus.
In Australia it was common practice particularly in the outback in summertime with temps often up around the low 40's C.
Most times one was using ships battery so Very conscious of not having to abort the start and having the temp needle hovering around the red line.
One tended to use a lot of Water Meth too.
Took off once at Tennant Creek south of Darwin in a Viscount. OAT was ISA +25. Could see the W/M quantity guages dropping during t/o and I'm sure I could hear it gurgling down the pipes!
Emeritus.
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Reading back through some previous posts I am suprised to read that the starts sometimes req metering the HP cock in European climes.
In Australia it was common practice particularly in the outback in summertime with temps often up around the low 40's C.
Most times one was using ships battery so Very conscious of not having to abort the start and having the temp needle hovering around the red line.
One tended to use a lot of Water Meth too.
Took off once at Tennant Creek south of Darwin in a Viscount. OAT was ISA +25. Could see the W/M quantity guages dropping during t/o and I'm sure I could hear it gurgling down the pipes!
Emeritus.
In Australia it was common practice particularly in the outback in summertime with temps often up around the low 40's C.
Most times one was using ships battery so Very conscious of not having to abort the start and having the temp needle hovering around the red line.
One tended to use a lot of Water Meth too.
Took off once at Tennant Creek south of Darwin in a Viscount. OAT was ISA +25. Could see the W/M quantity guages dropping during t/o and I'm sure I could hear it gurgling down the pipes!
Emeritus.
Last edited by JammedStab; 12th Nov 2012 at 07:50.
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Ah, P1fel how right you are - layshaft chatter it was indeed. You'd think I'd remember. Hangs head in shame! 
And milking the HP Cock - I'd forgotten that too! Emeritus, I seem to recall that we'd be doing that in temperate climes if there was a tailwind or low electrical power.
And that self-emptying gearbox. I was on the approach to EDI RW31 (as it was then) and BOTH lights came on - one solid and one flickering. I declined the brand-new F/O's suggestion ... no, I won't elaborate further - you can guess! Turns out the gearboxes had been refilled overnight by a new guy in the hangar who, the crew-chief told me, had been a postman the week before!!!
Someone mentioned the Creil diversion with a rudder hardover and an engine out. There is a chap on this very forum who is probably too modest to talk about it who was the Captain on that famous flight. It was one of the finest bits of flying I've ever heard of.
And milking the HP Cock - I'd forgotten that too! Emeritus, I seem to recall that we'd be doing that in temperate climes if there was a tailwind or low electrical power.
And that self-emptying gearbox. I was on the approach to EDI RW31 (as it was then) and BOTH lights came on - one solid and one flickering. I declined the brand-new F/O's suggestion ... no, I won't elaborate further - you can guess! Turns out the gearboxes had been refilled overnight by a new guy in the hangar who, the crew-chief told me, had been a postman the week before!!!
Someone mentioned the Creil diversion with a rudder hardover and an engine out. There is a chap on this very forum who is probably too modest to talk about it who was the Captain on that famous flight. It was one of the finest bits of flying I've ever heard of.
Last edited by UK019; 12th Nov 2012 at 13:11.
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UK019
I hope he does too
without over emphasizing the dire straights they were in, just a small bit of recall I have of the incident; the aircraft yawed violently when the rudder bracket failed causing significant uncommanded rudder deflection. Cross control was required to keep the pointy end going forward. I gather it required some very skilful correction because of the infamously limited aileron control of the FK27 with no rudder control available.
With the fuel system arrangement having a collector tank inboard of the wing, the wing that was low caused the collector tank to empty which resulted in that wings engine to fail which ironically was a god send, as it made the aircraft handling more manageable allowing successful landing at Creil.
I hope he does too
without over emphasizing the dire straights they were in, just a small bit of recall I have of the incident; the aircraft yawed violently when the rudder bracket failed causing significant uncommanded rudder deflection. Cross control was required to keep the pointy end going forward. I gather it required some very skilful correction
because of the infamously limited aileron control of the FK27 with no rudder control available. With the fuel system arrangement having a collector tank inboard of the wing, the wing that was low caused the collector tank to empty which resulted in that wings engine to fail which ironically was a god send, as it made the aircraft handling more manageable allowing successful landing at Creil.
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
I'm not sure the compliments are deserved, but thanks anyway.
In a nutshell, the cause of the problem was loose rivets in the rudder trim tab. As the aircraft accelerated in the descent, the tab started to flutter, and with the loose rivets it had a frequency resonant with the rudder itself. The result was very rapid deflections of the rudder and eventual partial breakup, leaving full starboard rudder applied.
As P1fel said, the fuel system didn't like the angle of bank, and the port engine quit, making life a little easier. After touchdown, with the loss of the correcting bank, the aircraft decided to take to the grass.
Having landed at Creil, the FAF base, we avoided the press until the publication of the report some twelve-months later when the Yorkshire Post ran a headline along the lines of "Passengers Escape Death in Aircraft crash in Paris."
Oh, and 019 and P1fel, don't forget there were two crew on that flight. Sue H was the handling pilot until I took over.
If anyone wants to trudge through the details, they are here.
Air Accidents Investigation: 7/1985 G-BHMZ
Oh and I've just realised, it was twenty-eight years ago last month. Now that does make me feel old.
In a nutshell, the cause of the problem was loose rivets in the rudder trim tab. As the aircraft accelerated in the descent, the tab started to flutter, and with the loose rivets it had a frequency resonant with the rudder itself. The result was very rapid deflections of the rudder and eventual partial breakup, leaving full starboard rudder applied.
As P1fel said, the fuel system didn't like the angle of bank, and the port engine quit, making life a little easier. After touchdown, with the loss of the correcting bank, the aircraft decided to take to the grass.
Having landed at Creil, the FAF base, we avoided the press until the publication of the report some twelve-months later when the Yorkshire Post ran a headline along the lines of "Passengers Escape Death in Aircraft crash in Paris."
Oh, and 019 and P1fel, don't forget there were two crew on that flight. Sue H was the handling pilot until I took over.
If anyone wants to trudge through the details, they are here.
Air Accidents Investigation: 7/1985 G-BHMZ
Oh and I've just realised, it was twenty-eight years ago last month. Now that does make me feel old.
Last edited by Herod; 12th Nov 2012 at 15:52. Reason: Last lines added
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I worked on all three types over the period from 1979 to around 2000 and held a Type rated licence (A&C) on all three, the Herald was the most challenging to maintain, both the F27 and 748 had a good product support to provide repair drawings, advice, spares and manufacturers repair facilities. The Herald did not have such support, and particularly in the latter years spares were sourced from life expired airframes, often on firedumps.
Each aircraft had its’ own weakness, the Herald nose wheelsteering system has been mentioned, the F27 freezing and leaking pneumatics,748 gust lock problems, however all three benefitted from a good robust engineand prop system.
The Herald was by far the best freighter, with the large double doors at the back ( less chance of hitting the prop with the fork lift)and a virtually indestructible cargo bay, the solid airframe could take farmore impact damage from careless or hurried loading. Dispatch reliability was around the same for all types, common problems were electrical snags, hydraulicrapid cycling, anti icing systems not working.
In the early nineties a programme of freight conversion was carried out on the Heralds, incorporating a class E smoke compartment and weight reduction modifications, in one case the removal of all non-essential systems and sound proofing increased the pay load by 500 kg, this gave the aircraft nearly a decade of good service, however lack of spares, and changes in regulations meant that the last flight was in early 1999, a well-known south coast freight operator replaced the Herald with the F27, but the aircraft wasnot nearly as robust as the Herald and suffered a much higher accident rate.
The book by Graham Cowell (ISBN 0 7106 0045 3 ) outlined the development proposals for the Herald,including the replacement of the Darts with Speys ( the Jet Herald), and alsosupplementing the Darts with CF700 engines in wing tip pods, that would havebeen interesting to maintain.
Each aircraft had its’ own weakness, the Herald nose wheelsteering system has been mentioned, the F27 freezing and leaking pneumatics,748 gust lock problems, however all three benefitted from a good robust engineand prop system.
The Herald was by far the best freighter, with the large double doors at the back ( less chance of hitting the prop with the fork lift)and a virtually indestructible cargo bay, the solid airframe could take farmore impact damage from careless or hurried loading. Dispatch reliability was around the same for all types, common problems were electrical snags, hydraulicrapid cycling, anti icing systems not working.
In the early nineties a programme of freight conversion was carried out on the Heralds, incorporating a class E smoke compartment and weight reduction modifications, in one case the removal of all non-essential systems and sound proofing increased the pay load by 500 kg, this gave the aircraft nearly a decade of good service, however lack of spares, and changes in regulations meant that the last flight was in early 1999, a well-known south coast freight operator replaced the Herald with the F27, but the aircraft wasnot nearly as robust as the Herald and suffered a much higher accident rate.
The book by Graham Cowell (ISBN 0 7106 0045 3 ) outlined the development proposals for the Herald,including the replacement of the Darts with Speys ( the Jet Herald), and alsosupplementing the Darts with CF700 engines in wing tip pods, that would havebeen interesting to maintain.
Last edited by om15; 12th Nov 2012 at 17:09.
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Ah yes Herod, Sue - I wonder where she is now. You'll see a picture of her on our reunion site.
I have always liked your "Herod" title and am constantly reminded of the schoolboy 'howler:'
"Salami danced naked in front of Harrods"
I have always liked your "Herod" title and am constantly reminded of the schoolboy 'howler:'
"Salami danced naked in front of Harrods"
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
UK019. Chosen because he was a much misunderstood and underrated leader who was around before Pontius even started basic training.
On a more serious note, I think the worst situation AirUK had was Des Holdcroft's accident at Schiphol. The starboard main gear wouldn't lock down and collapsed following a textbook landing. IIRC it was Des's first sector in command - quite a start.
I can't get the video to link, but a search of "F27 + Schiphol" will bring it up.
Strangely I can't seem to find the accident report on the AAIB website.
Herod (Antipas)
On a more serious note, I think the worst situation AirUK had was Des Holdcroft's accident at Schiphol. The starboard main gear wouldn't lock down and collapsed following a textbook landing. IIRC it was Des's first sector in command - quite a start.
I can't get the video to link, but a search of "F27 + Schiphol" will bring it up.
Strangely I can't seem to find the accident report on the AAIB website.
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"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
Last edited by Herod; 12th Nov 2012 at 21:13.
Since we are recalling examples of superb flying in F27s, I have been cudgelling my 3 remaining brain cells for the name of the pilot who extended and locked a recaltricant main leg by landing hard on the other one which had locked properly, in a "touch-and-go" with a difference.
I knew that this procedure was written up as a last resort, but I never thought I would meet someone who had done it.
As far as I can remember, it happened at Dubai in the 1970s, on a Gulf Air scheduled flight with a full load of passengers.
I knew that this procedure was written up as a last resort, but I never thought I would meet someone who had done it.
As far as I can remember, it happened at Dubai in the 1970s, on a Gulf Air scheduled flight with a full load of passengers.
Last edited by old,not bold; 13th Nov 2012 at 09:14.
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As we are comparing the virtues or otherwise of the HPR7 and the FK27, although I flew the FK27 four times longer than the HP7, inevitably one is potentially slightly more exposed to issue's with the later.
Regarding the Herald, operating the spill valves to de pressurise the aircraft was quite interesting. When it was your approach as an f.o, one had to swap hands whilst flying the ILS to operate the spill valves below and to the right of your right shoulder. The flight deck layout was a bit of a mess, with Inverters switches all over the place as bits of necessary equipment kept being added. Other than the nose wheel steering handle's, I do not recall any other particular issues with the Herald to that previously mentioned in other posts.
Regarding the Friendship, I once had to hold before arrival into the Isle Of Man. (if I recall correctly it was an NDB at Carnane)
As was very often the case, holding was due to awful weather at Ronaldsway airport.
We had been holding for some 20 minutes or so, in icing conditions and careful monitoring of the ice build and appropriate timing to break off the ice using the de icing boots was required.
Eventually we landed safely, to find that the vertical stabiliser had about 3" of ice build up which hadn't been shed, the issue was with moisture in the system freezing, preventing the vertical stabiliser boot from inflating.
Regarding the Herald, operating the spill valves to de pressurise the aircraft was quite interesting. When it was your approach as an f.o, one had to swap hands whilst flying the ILS to operate the spill valves below and to the right of your right shoulder. The flight deck layout was a bit of a mess, with Inverters switches all over the place as bits of necessary equipment kept being added. Other than the nose wheel steering handle's, I do not recall any other particular issues with the Herald to that previously mentioned in other posts.
Regarding the Friendship, I once had to hold before arrival into the Isle Of Man. (if I recall correctly it was an NDB at Carnane)
As was very often the case, holding was due to awful weather at Ronaldsway airport.
We had been holding for some 20 minutes or so, in icing conditions and careful monitoring of the ice build and appropriate timing to break off the ice using the de icing boots was required.
Eventually we landed safely, to find that the vertical stabiliser had about 3" of ice build up which hadn't been shed, the issue was with moisture in the system freezing, preventing the vertical stabiliser boot from inflating.
Last edited by p1fel; 14th Nov 2012 at 16:58.