Vulcan incident Doncaster 28th May

[longer ron]

Kitbag - from my point of view (I am an aircraft engineer) ...I do not think this incident has anything to do with the vulcan being a complex a/c.
It may be more to do with procedure(s),If I decided to leave some large bags in an a/c intake,common sense would tell me to (hate to use the expression !) do a 'risk assessment' - obviously the worst case would be if the bags were forgotten and left installed!
A procedure to ensure that worst case scenario did not happen would have to be implemented ... as I said previously this is a very unusual procedure,I have never seen anything like it in 40 odd years working on a/c.
I personally have found fod in an intake of an a/c which had not flown for about a week - in that time it had been signed as having 3 'after flights' which should have included intake/fan inspection.
As an aircraft techie (or even pilot) - distraction has to be guarded against at all times but the potential for it is always present unfortunately !

rgds LR

[Kitbag]

LR, point taken regarding aircraft complexity and this incident, and I wholly agree. I was trying to tease out where the limits are, and whether early jets compared to later jets may have different limits in terms of maintenance requirement.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Fact is there are just far too many holes lining up in this particular Swiss Cheese.

1) An apparently local procedure of dubious usefulness and high opportunity for hazard was instigated in the first place. The RAF never seemed to think it necessary so what do these people know that the crabs didn't?
2) Whatever accounting procedure - if any - that was in place to safeguard this procedure did not work.
3) Worse, it would seem whatever procedure was employed worked on three of the engines but not the fourth. This is a very serious anomaly indeed unless it was only one engine that needed/got the dessicant treatment which seems unlikely.
4) Additionally, very clearly the preflight inspection failed to be done correctly. That can be nothing but utterly inexcusable.

That's a chain with some very worrying and at present unexplained links. It does not smack of good practice on a number of levels to put it mildly and must lead one to wonder what else is being done as sloppily.

[Dak Mechanic]

They should have said it was a bird strike

S**t happens and I'm just glad it had a safe outcome. Actually, I would not have announced the cause until after a full investigation had been completed, just attributing the failure to FOD of an unknown nature until that time.

There is such a thing as being too open - the muck slinging has been far more detrimental than the engines crapping themselves IMHO.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Dak Quack, take a look at post 3 on page 1. I don't think they had much option. The only mitigating fact in this entire sorry saga is they fronted up with a frank (and damning) explanation right away. That at least was done in a professional manner.

[Rhinosteve]

I'll start with a confession or two. I have no inside knowledge or contacts, I am not from an aviation background and I have chipped in to help get and then keep 558 in the air.

That said I offer a few thoughts and observations that I would like to make. The first of which is to say that seeing and perhaps more importantly hearing the Vulcan at the shows I have managed to attend has been a real joy and something that I have been able to share with my son who was too young to see the final RAF display seasons. I congratulate and thank all that have made that possible.

My impression and again I stress no insider knowledge or contacts, is that the operations of TVOC are well run and I hope that they can get 558 back into the air.

I find the positions adopted by some contributors to this thread reactionary in the extreme. Conclusions drawn from supposition based on limited facts do not form a strong basis for a witch hunt. We have proper procedures administered by competent authorities, in place to examine what went wrong, who was responsible and what corrective action needs to be taken. I do not dispute that from what we know at present, something does appear to have gone wrong, but until the various investigations have been completed I think we should all hold off on the blame game. Especially when it involves throwing mud at an entire organisation.

This is not to suggest that I am not as baffled as everyone else as to how this could have happened or to deny the potentially serious nature of the incident.

I would also question whether "Volunteer" and "Competent" were mutually exclusive as appears to have been implied over the matter of who maintains the Vulcan.

Finally I think it is to the credit of TVOC that they quickly made a clear statement as to what they believed had happened and how it had been initiated. Hopefully they will continue to be as open as to the how the silica bag(s) came to be in the intake.

[jindabyne]

Jolly Good!

[srobarts]

Rhinosteve

I have no inside knowledge or contacts

Said twice so you obviously do.

Conclusions drawn from supposition based on limited facts do not form a strong basis

So how come you are so supportive of TVOC - oh I see, refer back to point one.

[Dak Mechanic]

I take your point Aggie Bipolar but the statement on post 5 is where it should have ended until a full report is made at a later date, in the fullness of time after due consideration of the facts....... In other words when the majority of people had forgotten about it.

On the other hand I may have been in the Civil Service for too long!!

It's a PR disaster basically.

[Exrigger]

Dak Mechanic:

It's a PR disaster basically.

Not so sure about that, as the funding requirements prior to the incident was some £20,000 short by the time the deadline had been reached and post the incident an anonymous donator coughed up the shortfall and a bit extra and the core supporters are also re-donating to help with the additonal cost burden, if what I read around the forums is correct.

[deltapapa]

Not as much of a PR disaster to claim a bird strike and then have it come out it was FOD caused by human error!!

Now that would have been a disaster and the sooner the results of the inquiry are published the better!

[M100S2]

My impression and again I stress no insider knowledge or contacts, is that the operations of TVOC are well run

Yes, so well run they stuff a random number of objects down the engine intakes and then forget to remove them. A simple basic check as drummed into student pilots in the first few hours of their training would have enabled this error to be detected, missing something that was put in there on purpose is inexcusable.

I think we should all hold off on the blame game. Especially when it involves throwing mud at an entire organisation

Some would have issue with the use of the word 'organisation'

If it had been a simple but unavoidable bird strike then the subsequent loss of the engines would have been sad but paltatable, the fact it was self inflicted leaves a very nasty taste in the mouth and a bunch of cash that will now go to far more worthwhile causes.

[amberleaf]

From the Vulcan newsletter....

With steady progress on reconnecting various systems to the replacement engines, there are only a few small tasks to perform before we can consider taking XH558 outside to the engine ground running pan to begin preparing her for engine start and ground running.

This will be undertaken in well-defined procedures to test all connections and ensure engine parameters are as expected, before the engines are run for some time, first at idling speed and then intermediate settings, during which we will undertake various inspections and measurements.

Providing all is well, and no further rectification work is needed, we then progress to high power runs.

And with any luck, someone will have a quick shufti down the intakes before they start........

[Hasel Checks]

To even think of spooling up before a full inquiry has finished, AND proper checks, safeguards, and procedures are instituted, AND drummed into heads of all hands, is foolhardy. WAIT Gentlemen, just wait and think...

[BEagle]

Full power engine runs on the new engines have now been conducted. Some adjustment and minor rectification work is now needed before system tests are completed over the next few days.

Although we still await the incident report, the engineering work during this double engine change has progressed very well indeed.

[Groundloop]

To even think of spooling up before a full inquiry has finished, AND proper checks, safeguards, and procedures are instituted, AND drummed into heads of all hands, is foolhardy.

So by your reckoning, any time an airline has an incident then the entire airline should be grounded for days, weeks, months.....

[spekesoftly]

Originally Posted by srobarts

I notice from GINFO that the permit to fly renewal application was received by the CAA on 25/05/12 with an expected processing date of 31/05/2012. Not the best timing!

XH558's Permit to Fly has now been renewed by the CAA, and is valid from 1st July 2012 to 24 June 2013.

[Winco]

Hasel checks

I understand your concern but I don't think it's necessary to wait until the outcome of then inquiry is announced before proceeding with the work to get 558 back into the air. Airliners DO get grounded after an incident involving another of same type, but it's primarily to establish what went wrong. In the case of 558 this was established pretty quickly!

I am sure that a very costly lesson has been learned by everyone involved, from Pleming downwards, and I can't see it happening again. I am equally certain that a more 'formal' routine will be firmly in place to prevent the same occuring again. I just hope that the top management have leatrned their lesson though.

BEagle, do they do the old Slam checks still on 558? and is there any reason why the CAA awarded a 51 week P to F and not the full 52 weeks?

Hope to see her at RIAT maybe??

Winco

[Hasel Checks]

Groundloop: As has been pointed out, any responsible airline would certainly ground all of the same type involved until the cause is properly discerned, and permanently fixed, and measures taken to prevent a recurrence. To compare a government regulated airline with this group of self-regulating happy amateurs is a false comparison. As is perfectly obvious to any dispassionate observer. If they view themselves at the same level of professionalism as an airline they should hold themselves to the same standards.

[Hasel Checks]

Winco: I've read, and agree with, your previous comments in this thread, all except your last one. As a schoolboy, I rocked on my heels in awe as a Vulcan roared 200 feet above my head as we camped at the end of the runway at RAF Valley in the 1960s. I understand the thrill and eagerness to pass it on. But these people have shown themselves to be far from competent to manage a Vulcan safely. It simply is not enough to "hope they've learned their lesson", they clearly need to be disciplined and regulated by competent people. Unlike you, I can easily see this sort of thing happening again, if they are allowed to just potter on, and next time schoolboys underneath it may well perish. It's not worth the risk of letting the same people continue.