History , hard to come by!
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History , hard to come by!
Good morning History buffs,
I have already read on this forum, that some one found difficulty in getting information from their dad about the conflict of WW2, my father was a Navigator and flew through the North African and then Malta and Italian theatre's in Beaufighters, the strange thing is, the Second World War lasted roughly 6 years, but from my earliest recollections to last year when my father died, it was like squeezing blood from a stone getting details from him, it was almost as though a wall existed and you were not allowed to see over into the distance beyond, I took my father down to the Fighter Collection at Duxford , to show him the start of a Beau that they are rebuilding, he stood there with one hand upon the cockpit window frame with tears running down his cheeks, after that he went very quiet, and sat alone for about half an hour, what the hell was it that affected all these normal men, who did their best for our freedom, I found great difficulty in understanding why my Dad could not or would not talk about what they did, I am still going through his personal belongings and have found diaries from his start in N Africa, when I have managed to read all of these it may throw some light on this area, but all the other men who I know who fought in the WW2 seem to be exactly the same, in fact the Pilot who my father flew with for a very long period is still alive but will not utter a word about anything connected with the conflict. Anyone found the same?
I have already read on this forum, that some one found difficulty in getting information from their dad about the conflict of WW2, my father was a Navigator and flew through the North African and then Malta and Italian theatre's in Beaufighters, the strange thing is, the Second World War lasted roughly 6 years, but from my earliest recollections to last year when my father died, it was like squeezing blood from a stone getting details from him, it was almost as though a wall existed and you were not allowed to see over into the distance beyond, I took my father down to the Fighter Collection at Duxford , to show him the start of a Beau that they are rebuilding, he stood there with one hand upon the cockpit window frame with tears running down his cheeks, after that he went very quiet, and sat alone for about half an hour, what the hell was it that affected all these normal men, who did their best for our freedom, I found great difficulty in understanding why my Dad could not or would not talk about what they did, I am still going through his personal belongings and have found diaries from his start in N Africa, when I have managed to read all of these it may throw some light on this area, but all the other men who I know who fought in the WW2 seem to be exactly the same, in fact the Pilot who my father flew with for a very long period is still alive but will not utter a word about anything connected with the conflict. Anyone found the same?
Hello again VFR!
What you describe with your Dad is very common. My old Dad died some time ago but he wouldn't talk much about what he'd been through until time began to catch up with him and he realised that all my questions were a facination for the history of the period and what ordinary people had been through. Your Dad probably remembers friends who were killed, total fear! Excitment, and achievement. Pressures that today would probably end up in people sueing the MOD! At the time it was not the done thing to 'shoot a line' or even admit to the fact that the stress was getting to you because you'd get little sympathy from the higher ranks. You lived life at 300 mph, or more! and it left effects we can see but not ever really understand. To me they were all Heros.
Spiney
What you describe with your Dad is very common. My old Dad died some time ago but he wouldn't talk much about what he'd been through until time began to catch up with him and he realised that all my questions were a facination for the history of the period and what ordinary people had been through. Your Dad probably remembers friends who were killed, total fear! Excitment, and achievement. Pressures that today would probably end up in people sueing the MOD! At the time it was not the done thing to 'shoot a line' or even admit to the fact that the stress was getting to you because you'd get little sympathy from the higher ranks. You lived life at 300 mph, or more! and it left effects we can see but not ever really understand. To me they were all Heros.
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Very common, I think. Only flying story I ever heard from my grandfather was about how he very nearly flew into a cathedral in IMC while training pre-war with the Oxford UAS (Rules 5 and 24-27 presumably hadn't been invented at the time, because the only b*llocking he got was from a verger). He never talked about his experiences during wartime.
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I had the same problem prising any WW1 stories out of my father. Very tight-lipped, except about incidents that could be recounted in a jokey way, as a "laugh". And, since he was the squadron pianist, he remembered all the old songs: "Take the piston-rod out of my kidneys..." etc etc.
Nowadays aircrew do not seem to worry about being "sh*t-scared". They admit to it cheerfully, and very healthy it is too, I am sure. But the ethos of the RFC was very Victorian Public School, and such things were not mentionable. It was whispered that "so-and-so" was "losing his nerve" and, I believe that due allowances were made in a compassionate way. I am probably wrong, but I do not believe that was any procedure so brutal as "LMF" in WW2. The Downside was a huge load of stress and head of emotional steam, which some (most?) never really got over. Counselling, of course, was at least 50 years in the future. "Survivor's guilt" was obviously a major factor for some. The Padres could have helped, and probably did in some cases. But they were not aircew and therefore were separated from the pilots by an unbridgeable chasm. And their trustworthiness with confidences was suspect.
One subject on which Dad held forth with great eloquence and venom - strange in a chap who was very "establishment" and who had been to a school that specialised in producing Army officers - was his contempt for the competence of the General Staff.
Nowadays aircrew do not seem to worry about being "sh*t-scared". They admit to it cheerfully, and very healthy it is too, I am sure. But the ethos of the RFC was very Victorian Public School, and such things were not mentionable. It was whispered that "so-and-so" was "losing his nerve" and, I believe that due allowances were made in a compassionate way. I am probably wrong, but I do not believe that was any procedure so brutal as "LMF" in WW2. The Downside was a huge load of stress and head of emotional steam, which some (most?) never really got over. Counselling, of course, was at least 50 years in the future. "Survivor's guilt" was obviously a major factor for some. The Padres could have helped, and probably did in some cases. But they were not aircew and therefore were separated from the pilots by an unbridgeable chasm. And their trustworthiness with confidences was suspect.
One subject on which Dad held forth with great eloquence and venom - strange in a chap who was very "establishment" and who had been to a school that specialised in producing Army officers - was his contempt for the competence of the General Staff.
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Spiney,Evo and Flatus,
I guess that this thread has given me the impetus to read my old mand diary's, it seems that the time in North Africa, was for the large part very uncomfortable and most of his cohorts looked forward to active flying, but in the diary that I have read since the onset of this forum, it seem's that his Sqdn(272) lost men daily, and it seems to be a great downer on the way my fathers entry's are written, looking at what you write in your posts it could well be the "Guilt at Survival" syndrome, my generation have been very lucky!
My Regards
I guess that this thread has given me the impetus to read my old mand diary's, it seems that the time in North Africa, was for the large part very uncomfortable and most of his cohorts looked forward to active flying, but in the diary that I have read since the onset of this forum, it seem's that his Sqdn(272) lost men daily, and it seems to be a great downer on the way my fathers entry's are written, looking at what you write in your posts it could well be the "Guilt at Survival" syndrome, my generation have been very lucky!
My Regards
Ah! Coastal Recon/Shipping strike eh. You're right vfr a very risky occupation. Low level, mainly by day. There was no time to recover from a hit as you flew directly at a ship that would be firing everything it had at you. It doesn't take much to imagine the effect this would have on you day after day. Just for a bit of extra spice 272 used to do airfield strafing attacks both in the Western desert and Sicily. As well as strikes against Motor transport when the land battle was at it's height. I've just found a little quote that might give you a flavour of the action.....
'On 18th November an especially succesful raid took place on Tmimi airfield: an HS126 and four SM79's on the ground were destroyed and five JU52's just taking off, were all shot down; Two other JU52's were shot down the same day. The Squadron now concentrated on these airfields and destroyed a large number of enemy aircraft, continuing until March 1942 when it returned to convoy work'.
(From Coastal, Support, and Special Squadrons of the RAF by J.D.R.Rawlings)
Spiney
'On 18th November an especially succesful raid took place on Tmimi airfield: an HS126 and four SM79's on the ground were destroyed and five JU52's just taking off, were all shot down; Two other JU52's were shot down the same day. The Squadron now concentrated on these airfields and destroyed a large number of enemy aircraft, continuing until March 1942 when it returned to convoy work'.
(From Coastal, Support, and Special Squadrons of the RAF by J.D.R.Rawlings)
Spiney
Oh! Just remembered an amusing Beaufighter story.....
In 1940 my Dad was training at Bircham Newton and was taken to Wainfleet range to observe a firing trial by a cannon equipped Beaufighter. Also present were a number of Brass hats who looked on confidently as the mighty new Coastal Command weapon hove into view...diving like a striking Falcon it opened fire....and part of both engine cowlings detached causing it to force land on the beach. Apparently a vehicle was sent to pick up the pilot, who returned laughing at his narrow escape. The Brass hats weren't!!
Spiney
In 1940 my Dad was training at Bircham Newton and was taken to Wainfleet range to observe a firing trial by a cannon equipped Beaufighter. Also present were a number of Brass hats who looked on confidently as the mighty new Coastal Command weapon hove into view...diving like a striking Falcon it opened fire....and part of both engine cowlings detached causing it to force land on the beach. Apparently a vehicle was sent to pick up the pilot, who returned laughing at his narrow escape. The Brass hats weren't!!
Spiney
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Spiney, Good morning,
one of the things my old dad told me , was that the Beaufighter was impervious to telegraph wires, and that they regularly flew through them to cause problems for the enemy troop com's, now being a PPL(H) I can start to apreciate how low , low flying was!
one of the things my old dad told me , was that the Beaufighter was impervious to telegraph wires, and that they regularly flew through them to cause problems for the enemy troop com's, now being a PPL(H) I can start to apreciate how low , low flying was!
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Hi VFRpilot,
I found a similar thing some years back. My father was a glider pilot in the war and although he would talk in detail about flying, had very little to say about his experiences on D-Day itself. Shortly before he died in 87, he wrote an account of his experiences in order to get some recognition for the French Resistance fighters who helped him after his escape from capture. This intrigued me and after his death I contacted the Glider Pilot Regimental Association magazine asking for more information about this Operation Tonga, which seemed to be ignored by the history books. Another relative of a former pilot was also searching for information and we compiled so many personal accounts that we ended up writing a book about the gliders on D-Day. In the years since it was published, many of the sons/daughters of the pilots have contacted me and told me that they had had no idea about their fathers' exploits during the War. It seems common for parents not to be able to talk about the painful memories of combat to their children.
I found a similar thing some years back. My father was a glider pilot in the war and although he would talk in detail about flying, had very little to say about his experiences on D-Day itself. Shortly before he died in 87, he wrote an account of his experiences in order to get some recognition for the French Resistance fighters who helped him after his escape from capture. This intrigued me and after his death I contacted the Glider Pilot Regimental Association magazine asking for more information about this Operation Tonga, which seemed to be ignored by the history books. Another relative of a former pilot was also searching for information and we compiled so many personal accounts that we ended up writing a book about the gliders on D-Day. In the years since it was published, many of the sons/daughters of the pilots have contacted me and told me that they had had no idea about their fathers' exploits during the War. It seems common for parents not to be able to talk about the painful memories of combat to their children.
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Hmmm.... reading this, it seems that I, as a teenager, am very lucky not to have been a young man at the time. I think that the frames of mind of the men who witnessed WWII was really well represented on "Saving Private Ryan" and "Band of Brothers" (Even if they americanised the whole thing, overplayed the music a little on a few bits and it was about "grunts", and not pilots). A good book I remember reading was Rold Dahl's book about his experiences in Gladiators and Hurricanes. I wonder as to what people would feel like today if such a large conflict ever broke out again (It won't happen, thank God above). I'd say, as someone who has looked at all the second-hand evidence, that WWII was like the world today. There are stories of barbarity, deceit, betrayal, carelessness, and of some of the worst things that a man can do or be, on all sides, but there are also stories of bravery, sacrifice, honour, kindness, and many examples of the best in human nature being brought out in such mayhem.
So, I would say, that those who do not want to talk about their wartime experiences, I say leave them to it, as they may have seen things that would make you wretch at the thought of. Or, they may feel guilty at the loss of a good freind or someone who gave their lives to save others. These guys have been through hell. Or regret not doing it. Let 'em be.
So, I would say, that those who do not want to talk about their wartime experiences, I say leave them to it, as they may have seen things that would make you wretch at the thought of. Or, they may feel guilty at the loss of a good freind or someone who gave their lives to save others. These guys have been through hell. Or regret not doing it. Let 'em be.
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VFR - Interesting (and humbling) to read of your father's reaction to standing next to TFC's Beaufighter. I've been involved in the restoration of Skysport's Mk1F for a couple of years now, and so am very struck by the history of the aircraft and the crews who flew her and her kind. Over the years a number of ex-Beau men have been in to see X7688. She's nowhere near as Beaufighter-shaped as TFC's, but the cockpit is mostly restored.
The boss has intentionally left a panel from just in front of the windscreen off of the nose, and the Beau guys who visit invariably sign the inside of it - it's quite moving to realise that while many of this ever-dwindling band of men will not see her fly, when she finally does take to the air they will fly with her at least in memory.
Doesn't surprise me about the telegraph wires - The Beau was a tough old bird, which undoubtedly helped to keep many of these old boys alive.
The boss has intentionally left a panel from just in front of the windscreen off of the nose, and the Beau guys who visit invariably sign the inside of it - it's quite moving to realise that while many of this ever-dwindling band of men will not see her fly, when she finally does take to the air they will fly with her at least in memory.
Doesn't surprise me about the telegraph wires - The Beau was a tough old bird, which undoubtedly helped to keep many of these old boys alive.
