Blackburn Buccaneer, Did it beat the Yanks?
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Blackburn Buccaneer, Did it beat the Yanks?
Some of you older Mil pilots may be able to throw light on this, but I remember my uncle telling me about some sort of international contest to see who's Air Force had the best bits, either hardware or pilots, I think in the seventies or therabouts, a Buccaneer took part in one of these contest's and was flying so low over the desert that it was dragging dust and debris behind it, the gunners who were tasked to defend the target, couldn't get a bead on these Buc's because they were too low and fast, the Buc went on to win the contest, did any of you take part in any of these things, but what made the Buc so able to out perform the more up to date heavy fast stuff?
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Guess this was the "Red Flag" competition at Nellis. I believe that the RAF first took part in 1977 - 10 Buccaneers and 2 Vulcans. They performed very well until 1980, when an accident, which killed both crew, lead to the grounding of all Buccaneers whilst the front wing spar was checked for fatigue. The BB continued to participate until 1983.
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vfrpilotpb,
You are referring to Red Flag 1977 in Nevada. It was the first time that the RAF had been invited to participate in this large US multi threat environment exercise in which large packets of mixed aircraft were pitted against pretty realistic and extensive simulated EW, AAA and SAM defences. We sent a Vulcan and Buccaneer detachment. Whilst not disagreeing one jot with BEags it was more the tactics employed that knocked the Americans off their perches. They had precious little exposure to hard aggressive low level flying of the sort that the Buccs in particular specialised in. The famous incident that has passed into urban flying legand is of a TV repeat of an optical tracker. The screen is tracking a very aggressively flown Bucc at VERY low level and the sound track records various voices saying, to all intents and purposes, "Goddam, I'm gonna go outside and watch this!"
The Buccs were pretty spectacular, even the one that flew into the ground the following year after suffering a fatigue crack in it's wing spar went out in rather spectacular style(RIP). The old Vulcoon was good but not quite as good, no way could you avoid the rather big shadow cast by that huge wing.
So it wasn't a competition, but the spams were pretty gob smacked!
Suit
You are referring to Red Flag 1977 in Nevada. It was the first time that the RAF had been invited to participate in this large US multi threat environment exercise in which large packets of mixed aircraft were pitted against pretty realistic and extensive simulated EW, AAA and SAM defences. We sent a Vulcan and Buccaneer detachment. Whilst not disagreeing one jot with BEags it was more the tactics employed that knocked the Americans off their perches. They had precious little exposure to hard aggressive low level flying of the sort that the Buccs in particular specialised in. The famous incident that has passed into urban flying legand is of a TV repeat of an optical tracker. The screen is tracking a very aggressively flown Bucc at VERY low level and the sound track records various voices saying, to all intents and purposes, "Goddam, I'm gonna go outside and watch this!"
The Buccs were pretty spectacular, even the one that flew into the ground the following year after suffering a fatigue crack in it's wing spar went out in rather spectacular style(RIP). The old Vulcoon was good but not quite as good, no way could you avoid the rather big shadow cast by that huge wing.
So it wasn't a competition, but the spams were pretty gob smacked!
Suit
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May be apocryphal, but I once heard that the Bucc mates also used large quantities of newspaper, dumped from the airbrake or weapons bay to simulate a "Knickers" if any of the F-5s got anywhere near their six.
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Thank you all ,
It must have been something to be able to work with such kit, I stood under a BB once and was amazed at the sheer size of the landing Oleo's and shafts, thought stuff of that size was only found on HGV's.
Many Regards
It must have been something to be able to work with such kit, I stood under a BB once and was amazed at the sheer size of the landing Oleo's and shafts, thought stuff of that size was only found on HGV's.
Many Regards
To give people an idea of the size of a Bucc - if you entered the radio bay through the access hatch, it was actually possible to stand upright inside the thing! The radio bay was at the back inside the coke-bottle area rule bulge. Good hidey-hole for demi-johns of Keo brandy (or kokkinelli if you really wanted it!), crates of Wobbly or wine from Das Reich etc etc - allegedly!!
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Then there was the Buc that lost its radome during another Red Flag — by clipping a telephone cable in a climb. The phone company linemen who went out to repair the damage said they measured the height of the cable along that stretch at 42 feet above ground level. The point at which the Buc hit the cable was doubtlessly a foot or two lower due to catenary effect (sag).
More Buccaneer tidbits:<ul type="square">[*]Drooled over by the US Navy when it first came out, and was evaluated for possible adoption. The only overwhelming reason why the Grumman A-6 Intruder won seemed to be because it was a US design and the Buc wasn't. The M-14 beat the FN-FAL in a similar service test series WRT the replacement for the old M-1 service rifle for the same reason: NIH syndrome.[*]The Federal German Bundesmarine had pushed for the adoption of the Buc as a naval interdiction machine as well. Due to diplomatic pressure from the US, and a push for commonality of equipment with the Luftwaffe, they got the F-104G instead.[/list]
More Buccaneer tidbits:<ul type="square">[*]Drooled over by the US Navy when it first came out, and was evaluated for possible adoption. The only overwhelming reason why the Grumman A-6 Intruder won seemed to be because it was a US design and the Buc wasn't. The M-14 beat the FN-FAL in a similar service test series WRT the replacement for the old M-1 service rifle for the same reason: NIH syndrome.[*]The Federal German Bundesmarine had pushed for the adoption of the Buc as a naval interdiction machine as well. Due to diplomatic pressure from the US, and a push for commonality of equipment with the Luftwaffe, they got the F-104G instead.[/list]
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There was also a famous news clip here in the US showing a Buccaneer coming around a rock in the Nevada desert and the commentator completly lost it.
It started as "Here comes one of the British Buccaneers" and ended up as "LOOK AT THAT MOTHER GO". And go he did, with the dust being picked up by the wingtip vortices. Wonderful stuff.
Great machines and great crews.
It started as "Here comes one of the British Buccaneers" and ended up as "LOOK AT THAT MOTHER GO". And go he did, with the dust being picked up by the wingtip vortices. Wonderful stuff.
Great machines and great crews.
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There were two consectutive, 2 week, detachments to Nellis in 1977 for Red Flags 77/8 and 77/9. Rumour control had it at the time that, after the first fortnight when the Cousins had not scored a single Bucc kill, a colonel was despatched to Washington to explain why the 'Most Powerful Nation on Earth' couldn't shoot them down. For the second fortnight the rules of the game were changed a little. The Bad Guys at Red Flag were supposed to operate their kit as though it were Soviet which, at the time, meant no look-down-shoot-down. For Red Flag 77/9 the Bad Guys suddenly had F-15s at their disposal and anything else needed to get a Bucc.
For the Vulcan buffs, the aircraft for 77/9 were hastily repainted with the undersurfaces 2-tone brown as the light grey glinted in the sun; the shadow was still a big problem and so routes were picked that stayed close to the mountain ridges and avoided the salt flats.
For the Vulcan buffs, the aircraft for 77/9 were hastily repainted with the undersurfaces 2-tone brown as the light grey glinted in the sun; the shadow was still a big problem and so routes were picked that stayed close to the mountain ridges and avoided the salt flats.
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rumour had it, that one way we confused the oposition was when they sneaked up for a shot the Bucc opened its brakes and stopped reletivly speaking. This pissed off the shooter who had just lined up the good shot.....as he overtook
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I was once told that by the time the yanks had got a firing solution on the buccaneer, they ran out of fuel so thats why they complained.
What do you expect when you take on one of the fastest of FJs at sea level without requiring afterburners.
What do you expect when you take on one of the fastest of FJs at sea level without requiring afterburners.
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And another thing . . . On one of the 'Flags the Buccs claimed a kill against an F-5 despite carrying no defensive armament in those days. They simulated dropping a 1000 pounder retard as the F-5 closed in and were credited with a kill from the 1000 pounder's explosion not many feet below the F-5.
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For some sad reason, this is one of those aviation things you never forget....
it was on the BBC news magazine programme "Nationwide", which featured the schoolboy dreamboat Sue Lawley. it was Red Flag, and the buccaneer driver was having what is loosely described as a "flying like a god" day. I will never forget that, he was using absolutely EVERY inch of airspace available, and was terminally "Fangs Out" The wingtip vortices were milk white and there was a sandstorm in his wake. The optical tracking USAF guys, were simulating a SAM site, and they had to keep the crosshairs on the Bucc for 5 seconds to score a kill. I remember the excitement in the control room, with various comments like "God Damn" and "That guy can fly" the one that sticks in my mind, is the operator in charge of making the kill, towards the end, just screaming at the top of his voice "GO BABY GO BABY GO BABY GO" .I applied for my test in advance at Biggin Hill the following day.
When I was being interviewed post selection tests, the I/C board, (Wing Cdr. Gordon Massey) asked me why I wanted to join the Air Force. I forgot my carefully rehearsed "battle of britain" speech, and just told them how I felt, seeing that buccaneer trash the best the septics had to offer. I passed....lol
If I ever meet that Buccaneer God, I'll buy him all the booze he ever needs.
Tony
it was on the BBC news magazine programme "Nationwide", which featured the schoolboy dreamboat Sue Lawley. it was Red Flag, and the buccaneer driver was having what is loosely described as a "flying like a god" day. I will never forget that, he was using absolutely EVERY inch of airspace available, and was terminally "Fangs Out" The wingtip vortices were milk white and there was a sandstorm in his wake. The optical tracking USAF guys, were simulating a SAM site, and they had to keep the crosshairs on the Bucc for 5 seconds to score a kill. I remember the excitement in the control room, with various comments like "God Damn" and "That guy can fly" the one that sticks in my mind, is the operator in charge of making the kill, towards the end, just screaming at the top of his voice "GO BABY GO BABY GO BABY GO" .I applied for my test in advance at Biggin Hill the following day.
When I was being interviewed post selection tests, the I/C board, (Wing Cdr. Gordon Massey) asked me why I wanted to join the Air Force. I forgot my carefully rehearsed "battle of britain" speech, and just told them how I felt, seeing that buccaneer trash the best the septics had to offer. I passed....lol
If I ever meet that Buccaneer God, I'll buy him all the booze he ever needs.
Tony
Suspicion breeds confidence
I see most US websites and reference books still talk about the A6 Intruder as being the best martime strike a/c ever (well they would) My money is on the Bucc. Does anyone have any first hand experience of the two that can give us any insight?
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The 'HGV' legs were, I think, a hangover from its original design and use as a carrier-based a/c.
Regarding the clamshell airbrake, I was once in hot pursuit of a pair in my Lightning over Suffolk at 20k in the mid-seventies when 'pop' went the airbrakes and down went the Buccs, hanging like parachutists in the air, while I whistled past and just about dropped one over Bury St E, which unfortunately about 3 days later experienced me in reheat trying to catch a pair of Buccs who were at 2'6" (or less) at 500kts+.
What a machine
Everyone said it was SO stable at low-level.
Belated apologies, Bury! I should say THEY went over and I went well, kind of round
Regarding the clamshell airbrake, I was once in hot pursuit of a pair in my Lightning over Suffolk at 20k in the mid-seventies when 'pop' went the airbrakes and down went the Buccs, hanging like parachutists in the air, while I whistled past and just about dropped one over Bury St E, which unfortunately about 3 days later experienced me in reheat trying to catch a pair of Buccs who were at 2'6" (or less) at 500kts+.
What a machine
Everyone said it was SO stable at low-level.Belated apologies, Bury! I should say THEY went over and I went well, kind of round
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Here's another, entirely different Buccaneer story...
Shortly before retirement, the Bucaneer was apparently used for tankage duties. A pair of Tornadi from a base 'somewhere in Scotland' met a Buc loitering over the North Sea, refuelled on their way to a range in West Germany. The Buc continued to loiter, again giving them fuel on the way back and all 3 a/c recovered to base. The Buc was found to have 1,000lb of tankage fuel left over. So, instead of carrying this excess fuel, the Buccaneer could have carried a 1,000lb munition, refuelled the Tornados, ACCOMPANIED THEM TO GERMANY, DROPPED THE ROUND, THEN REFUELLED THEM ON THE WAY HOME!! Does this speak volumes about the capabilities of the aircraft or the deficiencies of the Tornado, or a bit of both???
TOO
Shortly before retirement, the Bucaneer was apparently used for tankage duties. A pair of Tornadi from a base 'somewhere in Scotland' met a Buc loitering over the North Sea, refuelled on their way to a range in West Germany. The Buc continued to loiter, again giving them fuel on the way back and all 3 a/c recovered to base. The Buc was found to have 1,000lb of tankage fuel left over. So, instead of carrying this excess fuel, the Buccaneer could have carried a 1,000lb munition, refuelled the Tornados, ACCOMPANIED THEM TO GERMANY, DROPPED THE ROUND, THEN REFUELLED THEM ON THE WAY HOME!! Does this speak volumes about the capabilities of the aircraft or the deficiencies of the Tornado, or a bit of both???
TOO