Blackburn Buccaneer, Did it beat the Yanks?
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Anyone got the TV footage ???
Red Flag 1977 in Nevada.
Does anyone have a copy of the TV repeat of an optical tracker, dust trails and all ???
I remember it quite clearly and remember being impressed at the time.
Bucc hungry fan
Does anyone have a copy of the TV repeat of an optical tracker, dust trails and all ???
I remember it quite clearly and remember being impressed at the time.
Bucc hungry fan
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Passenger 9
I have been searching for the last three years, but have still not found a copy, I have even contacted the BBC, who I found to be rather helpful and suggested other leads, but all to no avail.
One day, something might surface.
I have been searching for the last three years, but have still not found a copy, I have even contacted the BBC, who I found to be rather helpful and suggested other leads, but all to no avail.
One day, something might surface.
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
Surely not:
I believe that they ran out of airframe hours - would any more knowledgeable care to comment?
Great anecdotes! Great aircraft, great pilots.
SD
This thread makes you wonder why we retired them! Would it have been so difficult to upgrade them to todays standards of electronics?
Great anecdotes! Great aircraft, great pilots.
SD
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I'm enjoying this thread and would like to contribute albeit 2nd hand. I have a friend of long standing ex Vulcan QFI and 53 squadron Belfast who was with the Vulcans at Red flag. He was nominated not to fly on this particular press day and therefore elected RAF spokesman to a national American TV channel. They had 3 tv crews situated along side the runway. Loosely "Start end" "Mid point" and "stop end". Much attention was focused on the B-52s Being passed from one camera to the next as they departed for the excercise, finally getting airborn more due to the curvature of the earth rather than a triumph of thrust over drag+gravity. Cue Avros finest much roaring and smoke on camera 1, then just before camera 2 on its tail and 
off like a homesick angel leaving cameras 2 and 3 scouring the sky!!!
Much wailing and gnashing of teeth
by the luviee types at the comentary position, somewhere in american tv archives is my mate Ice cool as ever " Of course we always fly these excercises at maximum take off weight in order to be realistic" Priceless I wish I could have been there.
Be lucky
David
off like a homesick angel leaving cameras 2 and 3 scouring the sky!!! Much wailing and gnashing of teeth by the luviee types at the comentary position, somewhere in american tv archives is my mate Ice cool as ever " Of course we always fly these excercises at maximum take off weight in order to be realistic" Priceless I wish I could have been there.Be lucky
David
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208 Penetrate!
I was an Air Tech on 208 when we went to Red Flag in '77. The UK based aircrews flew during the first slot and the RAFG aircrews during the second. I remember when we climbed off the Herc. after following the squadron from Goose Bay (by way of Offut) we were asked by the USAF liaison officer how many aircraft we had brought. The reply was 12. "How many did you leave the UK with?" he said. The reply was 12. With a look of amazement he pointed to the next dispersal, (populated by a USAF F4 squadron from, Florida). They left with 10 and arrived here with 6.
Somewhere I have the words to the 208 Red Flag squadron song (sung to the tune of "The Battle of New Orleans", goes something like;
On the 18th of August we took a little trip, to a place called Nellis by the Las Vegas strip. They give us f#$*-all money, so we loaded up with booze, and went to show the Yankees what a Buccaneer could do.
Best aircraft ever built.
Somewhere I have the words to the 208 Red Flag squadron song (sung to the tune of "The Battle of New Orleans", goes something like;
On the 18th of August we took a little trip, to a place called Nellis by the Las Vegas strip. They give us f#$*-all money, so we loaded up with booze, and went to show the Yankees what a Buccaneer could do.
Best aircraft ever built.
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Re the Bucc landing gear - I visited Brough once and toured the production line. I'll never forget the manufacturing process of the main leg. They got a billet of steel, ultrasounded, tested and everything to make sure there were no flaws [about 9 out of 10 billets rejected]. The the billet was mounted in a special rig where it was machined [ground down] to the required shape. Awsome!
Another incident of interest was the Vulcan participation in Giant Voice [the USAF annual bombing comp]. The Americans pulled every stunt in the world to ensure that the Vulcan was disadvantage at every turn. One of the stunts they pulled was to have a radar bombing only target, and knowing just how primitive the Vulcan system was, chose a spot in the middle of a featureless flat plain. There were very few radar echos to be had from structures, but the Spams had all sorts of sophistication that gave them an almighty edge. What they didn't bank on was British cunning...
The Brits arranged a bunch of mates [wives?] to have a picnic at a specific location, which was a precisely plotted spot relative to the target coordinates. A large bunch of cars was carefully grouped together with their back end facing a certain direction. At specific times, all the bootlids were opened and kept open for a precise number of minutes/seconds and then closed. This was repeated according to a very precise timetable. You can imaging the radar return that the crews got from this bunch of metal, with highly radar reflective surfaces pointing at them!
At the end of the timetable, the picnic was wrapped up and the cars dispersed. The Spams just could not figure out what this mysterious intermittent radar return was, or how the Brits wiped the floor with them on this impossible target! They never did twig to the appearance of the return coincidental with the Brit bombing runs...
The major lesson that came out of Flag 77/8 was that banking hard at LL exposed the brilliant white underside of the Vulcan, which contrasted vividly against the Brown/sand/salt terrain and could be spotted miles away. Thats why the wrapround camouflage was introduced.
Another incident of interest was the Vulcan participation in Giant Voice [the USAF annual bombing comp]. The Americans pulled every stunt in the world to ensure that the Vulcan was disadvantage at every turn. One of the stunts they pulled was to have a radar bombing only target, and knowing just how primitive the Vulcan system was, chose a spot in the middle of a featureless flat plain. There were very few radar echos to be had from structures, but the Spams had all sorts of sophistication that gave them an almighty edge. What they didn't bank on was British cunning...
The Brits arranged a bunch of mates [wives?] to have a picnic at a specific location, which was a precisely plotted spot relative to the target coordinates. A large bunch of cars was carefully grouped together with their back end facing a certain direction. At specific times, all the bootlids were opened and kept open for a precise number of minutes/seconds and then closed. This was repeated according to a very precise timetable. You can imaging the radar return that the crews got from this bunch of metal, with highly radar reflective surfaces pointing at them!
At the end of the timetable, the picnic was wrapped up and the cars dispersed. The Spams just could not figure out what this mysterious intermittent radar return was, or how the Brits wiped the floor with them on this impossible target! They never did twig to the appearance of the return coincidental with the Brit bombing runs...
The major lesson that came out of Flag 77/8 was that banking hard at LL exposed the brilliant white underside of the Vulcan, which contrasted vividly against the Brown/sand/salt terrain and could be spotted miles away. Thats why the wrapround camouflage was introduced.
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I was one of a hand picked team of technicians (drinking ability) who went to "Red Flag" in 83 as part of a 2 aircraft detachment to support the Jaguar Squadrons in a Pavespike role. The crews were made up from both XV and 16 Sqn from RAF Laarbruch. This was a very enjoyable trip as it got extended from 4 weeks to 6 weeks due to the Jag crews "cocking it up" (official line from AVM who was in charge, good decision, better suntan) During one of the non "Spiking" days our 2 aircraft were tasked to fly fighter escort for the Jags. On this mission the Jags were bounced by some F15's who latched onto the back of the "Pussycats" but unknown to the Yanks the 2 "fighter" escorts came out hiding, popped up behind them switched on the Pavespike pods simulating a Sidewinder lock on for the correct time limit and later came back claiming 3 "kills"
As you would expect the F15 jocks were not very happy bunnies especially when the video footage was shown. I will never forget one of those F15 drivers - right cocky git - spotty faced youth with "Hank the kid from Idaho" stitched on the back of his flying jacket!
"Buccaneer by nature - Buccaneer by choice"
As you would expect the F15 jocks were not very happy bunnies especially when the video footage was shown. I will never forget one of those F15 drivers - right cocky git - spotty faced youth with "Hank the kid from Idaho" stitched on the back of his flying jacket!
"Buccaneer by nature - Buccaneer by choice"
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Buccaneer - How low?
Here are a couple of stories which I've copied from our 16 Sqn Groundcrew website - Stories supplied by members Pug-H and Gran.
"Yo Joe, the Beeb were filming for the 60th Anniversary of the RAF. They also filmed a four ship that flew down the Peri-Track below the line of the ATC Tower roof (the cameras were on the roof). Remember Rob Godin (Gobby), he was up in one of those little towers (for lights I think), we had on some of the pans, to get a better view. As the four ship went past this tower was like a sapling in a gale, I'm sure Gobby went off to change his underwear shortly afterwards!!!!!! It was pretty awesome though, I've never seen a Bucc fly lower (without landing of course!!)
I seem to remember that a Mod was introduced, as a result of that Ken Tait flight, to add straps to the panel (thought I'd get technical there!!!).
*********************************************************
At a beer call, christmas 1975 just after I joined XV, Ken Tait tried convincing me that at 550 knots and 18feet up it would be impossible to fly a bucc into the ground as it would be riding on it's own shockwave. Of course after several bottles of charlie, and equal shots of doppelkorn I believed every word. Ken Tait being Ken Tait spent the next almost 3 years trying to prove it or so it seemed. On one occasion on a flying exercise he flew between my block of flats and and the next on Stettiner Strasse level with my balcony window, we lived on the 3 floor.
"Yo Joe, the Beeb were filming for the 60th Anniversary of the RAF. They also filmed a four ship that flew down the Peri-Track below the line of the ATC Tower roof (the cameras were on the roof). Remember Rob Godin (Gobby), he was up in one of those little towers (for lights I think), we had on some of the pans, to get a better view. As the four ship went past this tower was like a sapling in a gale, I'm sure Gobby went off to change his underwear shortly afterwards!!!!!! It was pretty awesome though, I've never seen a Bucc fly lower (without landing of course!!)
I seem to remember that a Mod was introduced, as a result of that Ken Tait flight, to add straps to the panel (thought I'd get technical there!!!).
*********************************************************
At a beer call, christmas 1975 just after I joined XV, Ken Tait tried convincing me that at 550 knots and 18feet up it would be impossible to fly a bucc into the ground as it would be riding on it's own shockwave. Of course after several bottles of charlie, and equal shots of doppelkorn I believed every word. Ken Tait being Ken Tait spent the next almost 3 years trying to prove it or so it seemed. On one occasion on a flying exercise he flew between my block of flats and and the next on Stettiner Strasse level with my balcony window, we lived on the 3 floor.
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red flag
being a participant in red flag on a number of occasions (1st/2nd/&4th)as a flm on the Bucc, i saw the reports when we got back ther had to be a special showing for 208's ground crew as the rest of the station had heard how spectacular the films were , one of the comments made by one of the pilots who had taken part was "by the way the trees you will see in this sequence are actually bushes" . to correct a few things commented on earlier, the paper put in the air brakes was actually chaff for anti radar (though it took out marauding fighters that got too close) the u/c legs weighed in at 2tonnes each without wheels and oil, the buccs under the vulcan took place at the first red flag the vulcan was reportedly at 50 feet,gave the opposing fighter pilot a bit of a shock as 3 a/c appeared where he was only expecting one,the yanks tried all sorts of tricks like delaying the fuel bowsers so we would miss our slots and attaching powerfull magnets to vulcan wing tips to upset the compass(alledged) you might be able to get video footage from the govenment under the freedom of info act as it was all classified as secret at the time but may be due for release soon.
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Buccaneer Development Proposals
As a result of this thread I have been reading up on the Buccaneer in my copies of Putnam and Project Cancelled (If your British this is NOT a book to read if already depressed) and it does appear particularly sad that at least one of the post-TSR2 Proposals for Buccaneer development didn't even get some serious consideration.
DIH
DIH
Buccaneer as TSR 2 replacement
"Blackburns themselves were convinced that what they had appeared to be an almost ready-made replacement for the TSR2: an aircraft that was well beyond its basic development stage and needing only limited funds in order to take it to the next phase of development.
Although this was an admirable attempt by Blackburns to compete with BAC aircraft, it seemed that what was actually put forward appeared to be little more than an optimistic sales campaign and was never going to be technically feasible, So many radical design changes would have been required to give it both the necessary speed and range that ultimately it would have resulted in a Buccaneer that bore little resemblance to the original submission."
from TSR-2 F Barnett-Jones
Although this was an admirable attempt by Blackburns to compete with BAC aircraft, it seemed that what was actually put forward appeared to be little more than an optimistic sales campaign and was never going to be technically feasible, So many radical design changes would have been required to give it both the necessary speed and range that ultimately it would have resulted in a Buccaneer that bore little resemblance to the original submission."
from TSR-2 F Barnett-Jones
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Thanks for the info Brewster B.
I still think it is a crying shame the Airframe and Systems weren't developed beyond the S2 Variants as even some of the less radical concepts would have made what was already a great aircraft awesome.
DIH
I still think it is a crying shame the Airframe and Systems weren't developed beyond the S2 Variants as even some of the less radical concepts would have made what was already a great aircraft awesome.
DIH
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The AvgasDinosaur
David
That is a very good question (and a good idea). So as I wait for the latest tear stains on the relevant pages of my copy of Project Cancel to dry, I think I will have a quick Google to see.
DIH
Update
Checks so far have mainly been on the 'usual suspects' for this sort of information. All mention the P.150 Proposal as passing reference (Post-TSR2 Proposal) and whilst a couple mention the P.140 and P.145 Concepts, little more than the Project Number is stated.
There probably is a site with more information, but I haven't found it (yet)!
DIH
David
That is a very good question (and a good idea). So as I wait for the latest tear stains on the relevant pages of my copy of Project Cancel to dry, I think I will have a quick Google to see.
DIH
Update
Checks so far have mainly been on the 'usual suspects' for this sort of information. All mention the P.150 Proposal as passing reference (Post-TSR2 Proposal) and whilst a couple mention the P.140 and P.145 Concepts, little more than the Project Number is stated.
There probably is a site with more information, but I haven't found it (yet)!
DIH
Last edited by Evileyes; 31st May 2006 at 07:17. Reason: Information Update
