Whats it like to fly a Spit?
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Whats it like to fly a Spit?
The epitome of aviation for me would be to fly a Spitfire even if just for a circuit.
Is there any Spit-rated pilots (any Mk but specifaly the V and/or IX) out there who could discribe a Spitty flight from start to finish? Throw in everything like the smell, vibration, whats it realy feels like as a pilot at the stick etc.
Apreciated with thanks.
Slash
Is there any Spit-rated pilots (any Mk but specifaly the V and/or IX) out there who could discribe a Spitty flight from start to finish? Throw in everything like the smell, vibration, whats it realy feels like as a pilot at the stick etc.
Apreciated with thanks.
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TO be honest I don't know (wish I did though).
That said, you could always try the next best thing (although some would say that it's the 1st best thing) as in how about: <a href="http://www.stallion51.com/intro.html" target="_blank">Stalion 51</a>
One of these days, eh !?......
That said, you could always try the next best thing (although some would say that it's the 1st best thing) as in how about: <a href="http://www.stallion51.com/intro.html" target="_blank">Stalion 51</a>
One of these days, eh !?......
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Thanks Puri. Yeh better than nothin. Despite there being no argument a P51 is a great aeroplane I still have this hankering for a Spit. Cant say Im truley a pilot deep down till Ive flown one. Thats not easy to do so the next best thing is have someone describe it to me (as only a pilot can) till Im one day able to.
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Unfortunately nor have I ever had the opportunity of a lifetime to fly a Spitfire. I have found the following links to sites describing what its like to fly the Spitfire, these may be of interest to you Mr Slasher <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9378/spit-fly.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9378/spit-fly.html</a>
<a href="http://www.spitfires.flyer.co.uk/flying.html" target="_blank">http://www.spitfires.flyer.co.uk/flying.html</a>
Kermie
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9378/spit-fly.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/9378/spit-fly.html</a>
<a href="http://www.spitfires.flyer.co.uk/flying.html" target="_blank">http://www.spitfires.flyer.co.uk/flying.html</a>
Kermie
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Try David Ogilvy's book on Flying the Shuttleworth Aircraft, which includes a rather tasty clipped wing Spit + article in Pilot only a few month's ago on flying Spits and Hurricanes.
You CAN fly one too -there are a couple of 2 seaters in the UK. It'll cost you about two grand for an hour.........."Bloody Hell" I hear you say. But bare in mind that it costs £50K to service the VP prop.........
You CAN fly one too -there are a couple of 2 seaters in the UK. It'll cost you about two grand for an hour.........."Bloody Hell" I hear you say. But bare in mind that it costs £50K to service the VP prop.........
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Thanks Kermit. Those 2 sites were pretty good! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
DOC thanks. But for me its the whole-hog solo endorsement or nothin at all. I have the money but I dont have enough tail-dragger time. Ive only got 1200 hrs in J-4s, DH82s, and PA18s with a smattering of DC-3 FO time. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
DOC thanks. But for me its the whole-hog solo endorsement or nothin at all. I have the money but I dont have enough tail-dragger time. Ive only got 1200 hrs in J-4s, DH82s, and PA18s with a smattering of DC-3 FO time. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Grandpa Aerotart
Gee Slash 1200 tailwheel time? that's only 2 or 3 times the total time that the average Spitfire pilot finished the war with!
When I can get the time free from work for a week or two next year I'm heading down to OZ to fly a P51. I won't get to fly it solo but I will be in the front seat for as many hours as I care to pay for. About 3K Ozzy/hour flight time.
My father has many hours in Spits, P51, Corsair, Bearcat all logged in the the 50s.
He first flew the Spit(MK9) pre wings parade in the RAF circa about 1949/50. Where he was learning to fly they had several Spits on hand as Flying Instructor sanity machines, in those days of course the RAF still had many many squadrons of late model Spitfires in service. He mentioned in passing to his Instructor one day how much he would love to fly the Spitfire and his instructors reply was "well here's the pilot notes, come back when you think you know them". He was finished the wings course and awaiting the Wings Parade before being posted to a Fighter OTU(Meteors). He came back the next day, his instructor asked him a bunch of questions while he sat in it and away he went.
A couple of his class mates who were similarly at a lose end for a week or two snaffled two more Spits on the field and and they spent the next 10 days roaring all over Southern England and across to the French coast playing tag and what have you. His log book shows 20+ hours in that time, LUCKY LUCKY BA$TARD!!!
His thoughts on the aircraft closely echo those in one of the above threads, he reckoned it landed like a big Tiger Moth.
Post RAF(it was National Service) he joined the French Foriegn Legion in a bit of a spiv deal they had going to bolster pilot numbers in the French Airforce operating in Indochina and flew the F4U7 and the F8F on active service.
Post Dien Bien Phu he immigrated to OZ(following the rest of his family out) and joined the RAAF and was posted to 1 Squadron on Lincolns. Guess what? They had a squadron hack P51 at Tengah and he wangled a few hours in that too from time to time!!! Mate we were definately born 30 years to late!!! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
His opinion of all those fighters was they are not difficult to fly at all. They are designed as gun platforms, that's there reason for existence, an unstable gun platform is usless!
A Check Captain who I flew with at NJS flew the Shuttleworth Hurricane in the 70s, his opinion was the same.
Col Pay is quoted as saying "No-one flys my Spitfire without showing me their stuff in my C185 first" apparently. Well of my 1000 odd tailwheel time 700 is 185/180, the rest scattered around DH82/Helio Courier/Chipmunk. Before I start paying for Mustang time I'm going to brush the cobwebs off my feet in a mates 180, then some T6 time(again with my mate). Dad reckons after about 200 hours in a Spit/Mustang you're about ready to tackle a Harvard
These aircraft are only flown these days by a lucky few, generally(but not always) very experienced professionals. Those that aren't flown by wealthy PPLs owners that is! Not because they are hard to fly but because they are relatively rare and worth heaps! All the WW2 era Spit pilots I ever met finished WW2 with less than 1000 hours total time.
So go for it! And then write about it here...I'll do the same for the Mustang next year!
Chuckles.
[ 25 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]</p>
When I can get the time free from work for a week or two next year I'm heading down to OZ to fly a P51. I won't get to fly it solo but I will be in the front seat for as many hours as I care to pay for. About 3K Ozzy/hour flight time.
My father has many hours in Spits, P51, Corsair, Bearcat all logged in the the 50s.
He first flew the Spit(MK9) pre wings parade in the RAF circa about 1949/50. Where he was learning to fly they had several Spits on hand as Flying Instructor sanity machines, in those days of course the RAF still had many many squadrons of late model Spitfires in service. He mentioned in passing to his Instructor one day how much he would love to fly the Spitfire and his instructors reply was "well here's the pilot notes, come back when you think you know them". He was finished the wings course and awaiting the Wings Parade before being posted to a Fighter OTU(Meteors). He came back the next day, his instructor asked him a bunch of questions while he sat in it and away he went.
A couple of his class mates who were similarly at a lose end for a week or two snaffled two more Spits on the field and and they spent the next 10 days roaring all over Southern England and across to the French coast playing tag and what have you. His log book shows 20+ hours in that time, LUCKY LUCKY BA$TARD!!!
His thoughts on the aircraft closely echo those in one of the above threads, he reckoned it landed like a big Tiger Moth.
Post RAF(it was National Service) he joined the French Foriegn Legion in a bit of a spiv deal they had going to bolster pilot numbers in the French Airforce operating in Indochina and flew the F4U7 and the F8F on active service.
Post Dien Bien Phu he immigrated to OZ(following the rest of his family out) and joined the RAAF and was posted to 1 Squadron on Lincolns. Guess what? They had a squadron hack P51 at Tengah and he wangled a few hours in that too from time to time!!! Mate we were definately born 30 years to late!!! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
His opinion of all those fighters was they are not difficult to fly at all. They are designed as gun platforms, that's there reason for existence, an unstable gun platform is usless!
A Check Captain who I flew with at NJS flew the Shuttleworth Hurricane in the 70s, his opinion was the same.
Col Pay is quoted as saying "No-one flys my Spitfire without showing me their stuff in my C185 first" apparently. Well of my 1000 odd tailwheel time 700 is 185/180, the rest scattered around DH82/Helio Courier/Chipmunk. Before I start paying for Mustang time I'm going to brush the cobwebs off my feet in a mates 180, then some T6 time(again with my mate). Dad reckons after about 200 hours in a Spit/Mustang you're about ready to tackle a Harvard
These aircraft are only flown these days by a lucky few, generally(but not always) very experienced professionals. Those that aren't flown by wealthy PPLs owners that is! Not because they are hard to fly but because they are relatively rare and worth heaps! All the WW2 era Spit pilots I ever met finished WW2 with less than 1000 hours total time.
So go for it! And then write about it here...I'll do the same for the Mustang next year!
Chuckles.
[ 25 December 2001: Message edited by: Chimbu chuckles ]</p>
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Slasher
I have been waiting in vain for someone much better qualified than me to answer your question about what it is like to fly a Spitfire. But no joy, so I will have to give it a go.
Back in 1991, I was privileged to fly the OFMC Spit IX for 18 trips during that air show season. Mark Hanna briefed me and without exaggeration I can say it was the best pilot-to-pilot brief I have ever had. So I knew what I had to do but at the same time I was extremely concerned in case I bent it. It was eight years since I had stopped flying professionally and any flying currency came from the odd trip in this or that light aircraft. Hardly the stuff to make you feel confident when tackling a National Treasure.
That concern dominated “what it was like to fly” until I passed over the Duxford hangars after my first take off. Up until then it was all about executing the brief and I had no mental horsepower left to actually appreciate things. The takeoff was all about what you would expect, no forward view, keeping straight, power on gently, making sure you kept the power back within the conservative limits set, keeping straight, raising the tail very carefully (just enough to see) and not beyond a slightly tail low attitude in order to keep the prop from hitting the ground on bumpy grass. Did I mention keeping straight? After unstuck there was an instant need to change hands to get the gear up using a combined gear and flap hydraulic selector gate on the right - the operation of which was anything except instinctive.
Then over the hangars I looked out sideways and saw the wing. That may seem a strange comment to make, but these days one is so often sitting out in front of whatever you are flying and so cannot see the airframe. Anyhow, there were these wings, at which point it actually sunk in that I was flying a Spitfire. I shouted out loud “Yes” and then felt a right prat a moment later for such un-cool behaviour.
A few minutes earlier, when walking out to the aircraft I had passed Ray Hanna, and he had mentioned that at shows he wanted to see no straight in approaches in his favourite aircraft, but a nice turning final until the flare - otherwise I could expect my cards. I said something on the lines of “we would have to see about that” and got on with thinking about the trip. Little did I realise the significance of what Ray said until I came in to land. In handling terms this frightening monster had became a pussycat on finals. By that I mean it was light on the controls, with excellent response about all axes and it flew really slowly as well. To get horribly technical it was light and floaty, not a lead sled. The end result was a feeling that it was totally happy aerodynamically and not going to bite you. Of course you could see absolutely zero out the front, but that was easily fixed by doing a turning final.
So suddenly it all became clear. All those war time movie shots of tight turning finals, with wings levelled only in the flare, was not a bunch of aces showing off at all (as I had previously thought) but the natural and easy way for anyone to land a Spit. It helps that the aircraft is quite clean, even gear and flap down, so it needs only a trickle of power as you approach the flare. This of course means there is not much of a change in lift or control circumstances when you eventually ease off the throttle.
These days I have been known to give a talk to aviation societies entitled “The Spitfire, the Lavi, the MiG-29 and the Harrier – a common denominator?” What can four such very different aeroplanes have in common? Well for my money each aeroplane is world class in respect of one characteristic. In the case of the Spitfire (Mk IX at least) it is the exquisite lateral control during the landing manoeuvre. I have never experienced better.
(In case you are interested, for me the Lavi has the easiest multirole fastjet cockpit to operate, the MiG-29 has the most benign high alpha handling fighter wing, while the Harrier has the best operating site flexibility) But I digress, back to the Spitfire.
Some modern pilots used to fully powered controls, might be a tad surprised at the muscle needed to get max manoeuvrability at higher speeds, but that is manual controls for you.
Flying display manoeuvres with a much reduced boost setting required one to be gentle and flowing or you could easily finish up slow and in the buffet and going nowhere and needing quite a while to build up energy again. I am sure that with +12 or more boost it would have been quite a different aeroplane. But regardless of the power available, one thing would not have changed – with the slightest touch of less than zero g the donk would cut. I understand the injected 109 was naturally a much better bet in that regard. Having the freedom to push to evade must have been important. Needing to roll and pull to suddenly get the nose down would take a lot longer, perhaps too long.
I have not mentioned what it is like to sit a few feet behind a Merlin that is firing up, idling, at high power or whatever. Why? – Because I am just not good enough with words to do the experience justice.
The worst aspect of operating the Spitfire? Engine temperature handling on the ground. It naturally had to be warmed up before doing the mag and power checks, but then you only had a minute or two before you had to either get airborne and avail yourself of some ram flow through the radiators or shut down again.
Hope that helps.
I have been waiting in vain for someone much better qualified than me to answer your question about what it is like to fly a Spitfire. But no joy, so I will have to give it a go.
Back in 1991, I was privileged to fly the OFMC Spit IX for 18 trips during that air show season. Mark Hanna briefed me and without exaggeration I can say it was the best pilot-to-pilot brief I have ever had. So I knew what I had to do but at the same time I was extremely concerned in case I bent it. It was eight years since I had stopped flying professionally and any flying currency came from the odd trip in this or that light aircraft. Hardly the stuff to make you feel confident when tackling a National Treasure.
That concern dominated “what it was like to fly” until I passed over the Duxford hangars after my first take off. Up until then it was all about executing the brief and I had no mental horsepower left to actually appreciate things. The takeoff was all about what you would expect, no forward view, keeping straight, power on gently, making sure you kept the power back within the conservative limits set, keeping straight, raising the tail very carefully (just enough to see) and not beyond a slightly tail low attitude in order to keep the prop from hitting the ground on bumpy grass. Did I mention keeping straight? After unstuck there was an instant need to change hands to get the gear up using a combined gear and flap hydraulic selector gate on the right - the operation of which was anything except instinctive.
Then over the hangars I looked out sideways and saw the wing. That may seem a strange comment to make, but these days one is so often sitting out in front of whatever you are flying and so cannot see the airframe. Anyhow, there were these wings, at which point it actually sunk in that I was flying a Spitfire. I shouted out loud “Yes” and then felt a right prat a moment later for such un-cool behaviour.
A few minutes earlier, when walking out to the aircraft I had passed Ray Hanna, and he had mentioned that at shows he wanted to see no straight in approaches in his favourite aircraft, but a nice turning final until the flare - otherwise I could expect my cards. I said something on the lines of “we would have to see about that” and got on with thinking about the trip. Little did I realise the significance of what Ray said until I came in to land. In handling terms this frightening monster had became a pussycat on finals. By that I mean it was light on the controls, with excellent response about all axes and it flew really slowly as well. To get horribly technical it was light and floaty, not a lead sled. The end result was a feeling that it was totally happy aerodynamically and not going to bite you. Of course you could see absolutely zero out the front, but that was easily fixed by doing a turning final.
So suddenly it all became clear. All those war time movie shots of tight turning finals, with wings levelled only in the flare, was not a bunch of aces showing off at all (as I had previously thought) but the natural and easy way for anyone to land a Spit. It helps that the aircraft is quite clean, even gear and flap down, so it needs only a trickle of power as you approach the flare. This of course means there is not much of a change in lift or control circumstances when you eventually ease off the throttle.
These days I have been known to give a talk to aviation societies entitled “The Spitfire, the Lavi, the MiG-29 and the Harrier – a common denominator?” What can four such very different aeroplanes have in common? Well for my money each aeroplane is world class in respect of one characteristic. In the case of the Spitfire (Mk IX at least) it is the exquisite lateral control during the landing manoeuvre. I have never experienced better.
(In case you are interested, for me the Lavi has the easiest multirole fastjet cockpit to operate, the MiG-29 has the most benign high alpha handling fighter wing, while the Harrier has the best operating site flexibility) But I digress, back to the Spitfire.
Some modern pilots used to fully powered controls, might be a tad surprised at the muscle needed to get max manoeuvrability at higher speeds, but that is manual controls for you.
Flying display manoeuvres with a much reduced boost setting required one to be gentle and flowing or you could easily finish up slow and in the buffet and going nowhere and needing quite a while to build up energy again. I am sure that with +12 or more boost it would have been quite a different aeroplane. But regardless of the power available, one thing would not have changed – with the slightest touch of less than zero g the donk would cut. I understand the injected 109 was naturally a much better bet in that regard. Having the freedom to push to evade must have been important. Needing to roll and pull to suddenly get the nose down would take a lot longer, perhaps too long.
I have not mentioned what it is like to sit a few feet behind a Merlin that is firing up, idling, at high power or whatever. Why? – Because I am just not good enough with words to do the experience justice.
The worst aspect of operating the Spitfire? Engine temperature handling on the ground. It naturally had to be warmed up before doing the mag and power checks, but then you only had a minute or two before you had to either get airborne and avail yourself of some ram flow through the radiators or shut down again.
Hope that helps.
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Thanks John. Very descriptive, and very flavoursome.
I am very glad you did justice to the question. I thought about answering, but decided that 40 minutes in a Mk 1 could not possibly qualify me to offer an opinion.
Your description did serve to remind me of some of the joy in flying one though. Hell of an experience!
I am very glad you did justice to the question. I thought about answering, but decided that 40 minutes in a Mk 1 could not possibly qualify me to offer an opinion.
Your description did serve to remind me of some of the joy in flying one though. Hell of an experience!
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Great post John:
There are only two airplanes that I would really love to fly before I get to senile to get in one,
first would be the Spit. then the Super Connie.
The most important part of your story for me was finally someone verifys that the turning approach to a landing is the easiest, only thing to remember is don't drag the wing. I use that approach with pilots who are having trouble judjing the flare height among other things.
Anyhow thanks again.
....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
There are only two airplanes that I would really love to fly before I get to senile to get in one,
first would be the Spit. then the Super Connie.
The most important part of your story for me was finally someone verifys that the turning approach to a landing is the easiest, only thing to remember is don't drag the wing. I use that approach with pilots who are having trouble judjing the flare height among other things.
Anyhow thanks again.
....................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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Yeh thanks John! VERY much apreciated! What I wouldnt bloodey give just for a solo circuit...
oh well back to MS Combat sim. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
CamelP a Spits a Spit mate. Id be interested in every second of the 40 minutes! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Slasher ]</p>
oh well back to MS Combat sim. <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
CamelP a Spits a Spit mate. Id be interested in every second of the 40 minutes! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Slasher ]</p>
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Great thread.
Thanks to Slasher for asking the question and John F's wonderful reply!!
Cat Driver - my advice is to amend your second wish to a Connie [L-749/C-121A]. It is apparently a much nicer handling a/c than the 'Super' which tends to be heavy and with very limited excess power. Vern Rayburn's [hope that was spelt correctly?] MATS Connie [a C-121A] is for sale and there's a chance to fly it for a price. The Dutch are also restoring its sister ship to take back to Holland. Both at Avra Valley nr. Tucson, AZ.
G'day and Happy New Year to ALL. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Feather #3 ]</p>
Thanks to Slasher for asking the question and John F's wonderful reply!!
Cat Driver - my advice is to amend your second wish to a Connie [L-749/C-121A]. It is apparently a much nicer handling a/c than the 'Super' which tends to be heavy and with very limited excess power. Vern Rayburn's [hope that was spelt correctly?] MATS Connie [a C-121A] is for sale and there's a chance to fly it for a price. The Dutch are also restoring its sister ship to take back to Holland. Both at Avra Valley nr. Tucson, AZ.
G'day and Happy New Year to ALL.
<img src="wink.gif" border="0">[ 30 December 2001: Message edited by: Feather #3 ]</p>
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This is too much.
Thanks John and the rest for the wonderful description.
Chuckles
Are you coming to Perth to fly Wylies P51, if you are let me know and we can have a beer or three.
I am currently negotiating the sale of one of my children for funds to cover that exercise.
Super Connie is on my list too, thanks Feather#3 for the L749 advice and location, sounds like I'm going to have to sell the other 2 as well. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Thanks overall Slasher
Thanks John and the rest for the wonderful description.
Chuckles
Are you coming to Perth to fly Wylies P51, if you are let me know and we can have a beer or three.
I am currently negotiating the sale of one of my children for funds to cover that exercise.
Super Connie is on my list too, thanks Feather#3 for the L749 advice and location, sounds like I'm going to have to sell the other 2 as well. <img src="cool.gif" border="0">
Thanks overall Slasher
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I've also always wanted to fly a Spitfire although I'm pretty certain I'll never get to do so. For a Spitfire wannabe such as myself, John's description is magical. To read a pilot's view of flying the Spitfire is always a pleasure; for that pilot to be one with John's levels of experience and expertise makes it even more so. Many, many thanks.
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"I have not mentioned what it is like to sit a few feet behind a Merlin that is firing up, idling, at high power or whatever. Why? – Because I am just not good enough with words to do the experience justice."
That comment by John Farley, brought it all back. I stood behind a Spitfire firing up at West Malling back in the eighties. All of the warbirds were lined up with their tails to the barriers. Why don't they do that anymore?
I don't know if I can describe it either. I was surrounded in a cocoon of warm sound and a Merlin fragranced vortex which overwhelmed my senses yet filled my emotions. A moment you feel more than you remember.
I'm off to find the pictures I took at that moment.
That comment by John Farley, brought it all back. I stood behind a Spitfire firing up at West Malling back in the eighties. All of the warbirds were lined up with their tails to the barriers. Why don't they do that anymore?
I don't know if I can describe it either. I was surrounded in a cocoon of warm sound and a Merlin fragranced vortex which overwhelmed my senses yet filled my emotions. A moment you feel more than you remember.
I'm off to find the pictures I took at that moment.
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My father was an LAC electrician on Neville Dukes North African 145 Squadron, the first Spritfire detatchment in the region. I grew up with tales of the Spitfire, and the men who flew them.
Last year, I discovered Neville Dukes War Diaries in the Transair shop at Fairoaks, on my way back from a sim-session at LHR. To use the phrase fascinating reading would be a gross understatement... excellent on their own, but with the knowledge that my dad had been a small part of what he was writing about it took on a new resonance for me. I felt, (still do!) like contacting Neville Duke and just saying what respect his NCO's had for him at the time, and how he'd helped fire the enthusiasm that had placed me in the left hand seat of an airliner
I'd auction off body parts to fly a Spitfire, but certainly don't feel I have the necessary skill. Still, I'd give it a serious go, however!
And for John Farley... respect! Another truly great contribution, makes it worthwhile spending the hours on this forum to have input like yours.
£6
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]</p>
Last year, I discovered Neville Dukes War Diaries in the Transair shop at Fairoaks, on my way back from a sim-session at LHR. To use the phrase fascinating reading would be a gross understatement... excellent on their own, but with the knowledge that my dad had been a small part of what he was writing about it took on a new resonance for me. I felt, (still do!) like contacting Neville Duke and just saying what respect his NCO's had for him at the time, and how he'd helped fire the enthusiasm that had placed me in the left hand seat of an airliner
I'd auction off body parts to fly a Spitfire, but certainly don't feel I have the necessary skill. Still, I'd give it a serious go, however!
And for John Farley... respect! Another truly great contribution, makes it worthwhile spending the hours on this forum to have input like yours.
£6
[ 04 January 2002: Message edited by: Sick Squid ]</p>