True Stories
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True Stories
I have been told that this is true, my brother saw the chap's logbooks after he qustioned the probability of it happening.
This old chap used to drink in my brother's local and they talked a lot about flying and WW2 in particular. The old guy, Chris, was of the right age and obvioulsy knew of what he talked. My bro got the following story out of him and sight of the logbooks.
Chris was an RAF pilot in the 30's who was chucked out of the club for writing his initial on a beach with his wingtip for a bet! Unfortunately, the CO was fishing there at the time.
When the Spanish Civil War kicked off, Chris decided to do the right thing and join up. He joined the Condor Legion and ended up flying Bf 109D's!
When WW2 started, Chris obviously wanted to rejoin the RAF. They wouldn't have him initially but as the BoB progressed, they relented and let him back in. Think of the tactical knowledge he could have imparted if they'd let him in earlier!
He flew throughout the war, initially on Hurricanes then Spits and finally Tempests. At the end of the war, services no longer required, he was demobbed.
Oh look, there's an airforce that needs pilots. He joined the Israeli airforce flying Spits and 109's again.
What a man, 3 different wars with 3 different airforces.
As I said, my bro saw the logbooks, and he was quite a cynic but he swore thay looked authentic to him. Unfortunately, I've lost track of the old chap; he's probably no longer around. Bro talked him into getting the story down on paper, but whether it was ever finished I don't know.
This old chap used to drink in my brother's local and they talked a lot about flying and WW2 in particular. The old guy, Chris, was of the right age and obvioulsy knew of what he talked. My bro got the following story out of him and sight of the logbooks.
Chris was an RAF pilot in the 30's who was chucked out of the club for writing his initial on a beach with his wingtip for a bet! Unfortunately, the CO was fishing there at the time.
When the Spanish Civil War kicked off, Chris decided to do the right thing and join up. He joined the Condor Legion and ended up flying Bf 109D's!
When WW2 started, Chris obviously wanted to rejoin the RAF. They wouldn't have him initially but as the BoB progressed, they relented and let him back in. Think of the tactical knowledge he could have imparted if they'd let him in earlier!
He flew throughout the war, initially on Hurricanes then Spits and finally Tempests. At the end of the war, services no longer required, he was demobbed.
Oh look, there's an airforce that needs pilots. He joined the Israeli airforce flying Spits and 109's again.
What a man, 3 different wars with 3 different airforces.
As I said, my bro saw the logbooks, and he was quite a cynic but he swore thay looked authentic to him. Unfortunately, I've lost track of the old chap; he's probably no longer around. Bro talked him into getting the story down on paper, but whether it was ever finished I don't know.
Not so N, but still FG
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Clearly not a chap overburdened by ideology if he was happy to fly first for the Condor Legion, and later for the new state of Israel. It always did strike me as deeply ironic that, when the infant Israeli Air force was trying to fend off attacks from its Arab neighbours in 1948, it had to resort to flying 109s, whilst the Arabs flew, er.... Spitfires. Later the Israelis got their hands on one or two Spits as well and there were apparently a few Spitfire v Spitfire showdowns.
Have there been any other situations in which the same aircraft types have fought against one another on opposing sides? Free French vs Vichy? India vs Pakistan? (I mean in their last war: hope it really is their last)
Have there been any other situations in which the same aircraft types have fought against one another on opposing sides? Free French vs Vichy? India vs Pakistan? (I mean in their last war: hope it really is their last)
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Lownslow,
Errr, if this guy flew 109s for the Condor Legion then he was a member of the Luftwaffe, not surprising that the RAF were less than happy about lwtting him in.
I thought the Condor Legion was all regular Luftwaffe, not a mercenary outfit?
Suit........
Errr, if this guy flew 109s for the Condor Legion then he was a member of the Luftwaffe, not surprising that the RAF were less than happy about lwtting him in.
I thought the Condor Legion was all regular Luftwaffe, not a mercenary outfit?
Suit........
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fng,if you do some research you will find that paddy finucane, the highest scoring spitfire ace in ww2, flew '109's & spits for israel & while flying a spit for israel was shot down by an raf spit.[at least i think it was an raf spit, but it could have been egyptian].i do have the gen in my files somewhere.
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gaterbait.
Paddy Finucane, while being a brilliant ace, he shot down 32 German aircraft, before he himself was shot down and killed by ground fire over France in July 1942, was not the highest scoring Spitfire ace. I am sure you will find it was Johnnie Johnson - who finished the war with a score of 38.
If you are thinking that Paddy could have flown Spitfire's after the war, then of course, that was impossible.
Paddy Finucane, while being a brilliant ace, he shot down 32 German aircraft, before he himself was shot down and killed by ground fire over France in July 1942, was not the highest scoring Spitfire ace. I am sure you will find it was Johnnie Johnson - who finished the war with a score of 38.
If you are thinking that Paddy could have flown Spitfire's after the war, then of course, that was impossible.
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George "Screwball" Beurling was one of a number of ex RAF Spitfire aces who did fly for Israel, but he was tragically killed when departing Rome in a transport full of supplies. Whether the crash was due to overloading or to sabotage is unclear.
As for RAF vs Israeli encounters, "The Israeli Air Force Story" by Murray Rubinstein and Richard Goldman records that an Israeli flight of two Spitfires and one P 51 flown by ex RAF and USAAF aces shot down five RAF Spitfires (aided by ground fire) in a confrontation on 7th January 1949. Later the same day an RAF Tempest escorting a reconnaissance Mosquito was downed by an Israeli Spitfire.
As for RAF vs Israeli encounters, "The Israeli Air Force Story" by Murray Rubinstein and Richard Goldman records that an Israeli flight of two Spitfires and one P 51 flown by ex RAF and USAAF aces shot down five RAF Spitfires (aided by ground fire) in a confrontation on 7th January 1949. Later the same day an RAF Tempest escorting a reconnaissance Mosquito was downed by an Israeli Spitfire.
Thread Starter
FNG, the Condor Legion part was the bit that bothered me the most, I knew that a bunch of people of different nationalities and ideologies helped Isreal set up their air force in the 40's. I know that non-Spanish people fought for Franco's crowd on the ground and I have thought it more probable that the old feller flew 109's for Franco rather than the German Condor Legion. Did Franco supply any men/aircraft to the Condor Legion?
One war where both sides had the same equipment was the Soccer War between El Salvador and Honduras when battle was commenced over the result of, surprise, surprise, a soccer match. It was P-51's (sorry F-51's then) on both sides! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
One war where both sides had the same equipment was the Soccer War between El Salvador and Honduras when battle was commenced over the result of, surprise, surprise, a soccer match. It was P-51's (sorry F-51's then) on both sides! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Googling produces a lot of interesting (although often depressing)information about the aerial aspect of the Spanish Civil War (and, if searching by reference to the Condor Legion, some dodgy neo-nazi websites as well), but not clear answers to your questions.
As far as I am aware, the Condor Legion was made up of Germans and Italians, about 5000 in all. It seems that most of the regular Spanish Airforce sided with Franco, as did most of the Army. On the Republican side, meanwhile, there were a number of volunteer and some mercenary pilots from various countries.
As far as I am aware, the Condor Legion was made up of Germans and Italians, about 5000 in all. It seems that most of the regular Spanish Airforce sided with Franco, as did most of the Army. On the Republican side, meanwhile, there were a number of volunteer and some mercenary pilots from various countries.
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FNG
The four Spitfires shot down by the Israelis were Spit XVIIIs (FR)of 208 Sqn doing a recce over the Sinai. They were unarmed and had their fingers in when they were bounced. The Deversoir Tempest Wing did a sweep looking for revenge, but again, the FCO would not let them have their guns cocked. First time I heard that one of them got shot down! <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="redface.gif" border="0">
The four Spitfires shot down by the Israelis were Spit XVIIIs (FR)of 208 Sqn doing a recce over the Sinai. They were unarmed and had their fingers in when they were bounced. The Deversoir Tempest Wing did a sweep looking for revenge, but again, the FCO would not let them have their guns cocked. First time I heard that one of them got shot down! <img src="redface.gif" border="0"> <img src="redface.gif" border="0">
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The IAF's own website only mentions five RAF aircraft shot down during Operation Horev on 7/1/49, so the Tempest claim is presumably inaccurate. I get the impression that both sides were and still are rather somewhat embarassed about the incident, as there is little on info on how or why it happened. Flatus, do you know anything more of the whys and wherefores?
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: FNG ]</p>
[ 31 January 2002: Message edited by: FNG ]</p>
