Come Fly with Me (The Story of Pan Am)
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I watched a bit of this series on BBC2 last night and if I am correct this series is set in the early to mid 1960's. If that is correct then what was a flight from New York to London doing operating without a Navigator as I do not remember at that time there being any INS available.
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Brit312
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Pan Am documentary
I found the last few minutes about Pan Am's downfall gripping but overall the talking heads needed more editing (puzzling concentration on cabin-crew) and the music was distracting and irritating...the story about Churchill's first Boeing 314 flight was bizarre they seemed to be claiming Pan Am flew him and the BOAC flight was bombed by the Germans?....I would have liked to have seen Pan Am's pioneering and ferrying on the 'Fireball' route mentioned (Miami-Brazil-West Africa-Arabia-India-China in WWII)
Trippe's lady assistant hit it on the head when she said it started going downhill after he retired (1968?).... ....Boeing bounced the airline industry into buying the 747 (still too big?) and Pan Am paid a big price for being the first with it. And as the programme said the Lockerbie incident could not be overcome.
Trippe's lady assistant hit it on the head when she said it started going downhill after he retired (1968?).... ....Boeing bounced the airline industry into buying the 747 (still too big?) and Pan Am paid a big price for being the first with it. And as the programme said the Lockerbie incident could not be overcome.
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...have never seen aircraft so obviously poorly maintained and in a filthy condition.
I would have loved to have flown with PanAm in the days of crossing the Pacific in a Martin 130 or Boeing 314 flying boat back in the 1930s.
By the same token, I would have loved to have flown with Imperial Airways from UK to the Far East at the same time.
Sadly, my experience of PanAm was really based in the 1980s when I commuted frequently across the Pond (I was based in JFK for three years). They had three (747) flights per day between Heathrow and JFK and they were all equally awful as far as the cabin service was concerned.
They seemed to have cornered the market in old boilers who had perfected the art of doing the absolute minimum possible to look after passengers.
Why did I fly with them? My company had an ID75 agreement with them so it was the cheapest way to commute. In other words, it was cheap and you can put up with lots of things for seven hours if it is cheap.
Otherwise, Ryanair wouldn't have more than 200 aeroplanes and move more people per annum than BA!
Sadly, PanAm tried to dine out on their reputation for far too long and refused to wake up in time to realise that the world had changed.
It will also be interesting to see if this TV series picks up on the fact that the old system of the "clipper captain" was always right and his authority could not be questioned.
That worked fairly well when the aeroplanes had propellers and flew at much slower speeds. When they got 707s, this philosophy produced something akin to carnage. Look at the statistics.
By the same token, I would have loved to have flown with Imperial Airways from UK to the Far East at the same time.
Sadly, my experience of PanAm was really based in the 1980s when I commuted frequently across the Pond (I was based in JFK for three years). They had three (747) flights per day between Heathrow and JFK and they were all equally awful as far as the cabin service was concerned.
They seemed to have cornered the market in old boilers who had perfected the art of doing the absolute minimum possible to look after passengers.
Why did I fly with them? My company had an ID75 agreement with them so it was the cheapest way to commute. In other words, it was cheap and you can put up with lots of things for seven hours if it is cheap.
Otherwise, Ryanair wouldn't have more than 200 aeroplanes and move more people per annum than BA!
Sadly, PanAm tried to dine out on their reputation for far too long and refused to wake up in time to realise that the world had changed.
It will also be interesting to see if this TV series picks up on the fact that the old system of the "clipper captain" was always right and his authority could not be questioned.
That worked fairly well when the aeroplanes had propellers and flew at much slower speeds. When they got 707s, this philosophy produced something akin to carnage. Look at the statistics.
You are quite right JW411. On my last flight with Pan Am in late 1982 from Frankfurt to New York, I had to help the hostie up the stairs to the 747 "as my knees are giving trouble"! She was older than my mother, poor dear. With regard to the maintenance of the aircraft, there is an air to air shot of the 747 towards the end of the documentary and it shows quite substantial staining at the base of the fin. Not good for a publicity shot I would have thought.
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There seems to be some slight confusion here....the programme in question was a documentary aired on Saturday last....the series is pure made for TV fiction.
As for "well worked black and dirty 707 / 720's.....er, one never looked too closely at those operated by a " well known Middle East airline noted for it's security "...although one did enjoy knocking seven bells out of the old JT3's T/Rs when they got stuck...as they were prone to do.
As for "well worked black and dirty 707 / 720's.....er, one never looked too closely at those operated by a " well known Middle East airline noted for it's security "...although one did enjoy knocking seven bells out of the old JT3's T/Rs when they got stuck...as they were prone to do.
It's slightly ironic that a history of Pan Am should be called 'Come Fly With Me' as the song was originally written to boost the fortunes of TWA. Although I haven't seen the documentary yet, I suspect they used the song.
TWA were in trouble in the mid 50's. The long overdue Lockheed Constellation was sending them under and the owner, Howard Hughes was suffereing assualts from Juan Trippe on several fronts, including a congressional inquiry which was probably instigated by Trippe. Siantra was a friend of Hughes at the time and although denied in his autobiography, the album 'Come Fly With Me' was a thinly disguised advert for TWA, you only have to look at the cover and see the red and white Constellations to realise that it was true
Later, Hughes and Siantra were to have a major falling out. Hughes objected to Sinatra's links to the Mafia, and Sinatra marrying Hughes' ex girlfriend, the actress Ava Gardiner probably didn't help either!
TWA were in trouble in the mid 50's. The long overdue Lockheed Constellation was sending them under and the owner, Howard Hughes was suffereing assualts from Juan Trippe on several fronts, including a congressional inquiry which was probably instigated by Trippe. Siantra was a friend of Hughes at the time and although denied in his autobiography, the album 'Come Fly With Me' was a thinly disguised advert for TWA, you only have to look at the cover and see the red and white Constellations to realise that it was true
Later, Hughes and Siantra were to have a major falling out. Hughes objected to Sinatra's links to the Mafia, and Sinatra marrying Hughes' ex girlfriend, the actress Ava Gardiner probably didn't help either!
Last edited by Dan Winterland; 18th Nov 2011 at 14:07. Reason: spilling
Perhaps Sammy Kahn, the songwriter, was secretly working for Pan Am ! I know the song was later used extensively in TWA advertising - were the non-conforming destinations missed out ?
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There is a brilliant book on Pan-Am, called "Skygods" written by Robert Gandt.
To me memories of Pan-Am are, that these guys were top aviators, at least the IGS (internal German Service) ones. My father has had close contact with them as an ATCO at Munich and Stuttgart in the sixties, seventies and eighties. One of the last times I saw a Clipper, was a B727 over the Weidacher Hill (NDB approach 08, EDDS) in an almighty sideslip, out of the sun. I was sitting in a C150 for a solo student flight...shortly afterwards they were history...
To me memories of Pan-Am are, that these guys were top aviators, at least the IGS (internal German Service) ones. My father has had close contact with them as an ATCO at Munich and Stuttgart in the sixties, seventies and eighties. One of the last times I saw a Clipper, was a B727 over the Weidacher Hill (NDB approach 08, EDDS) in an almighty sideslip, out of the sun. I was sitting in a C150 for a solo student flight...shortly afterwards they were history...
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For all this about Pan Am's amazing service, TWA (and BOAC) were generally considered to have far superior cabin service. Pan Am's was often considered "snooty" and "cold" compared to TWA
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Shanwick
The word Shanwick first appears in the Flight Global archive in 1965 with a suggestion that its procedures were operating the previous year.
The Irish aviation authority page suggests Shanwick was operational from 1966
Irish Aviation Authority - North Atlantic Communications - History
The Irish aviation authority page suggests Shanwick was operational from 1966
Irish Aviation Authority - North Atlantic Communications - History
Last edited by A30yoyo; 19th Nov 2011 at 23:47.
I didn't think much of it at all to be honest.
They seemed to think the 747 was 'created' for Pan Am. My understanding is that it was originally a military contract that was won by Lockheed with the Galaxy.
Which explains the hump as it was designed as a freighter with a thru-deck.
They also appeared to promote the idea that without Pan-Am and the 707 the jet age was doomed. A brief mention of the DH Comet being first was swamped later by labouring the point of it's later tragedies.
As for the fictional Pan-Am series.
They seemed to think the 747 was 'created' for Pan Am. My understanding is that it was originally a military contract that was won by Lockheed with the Galaxy.
Which explains the hump as it was designed as a freighter with a thru-deck.
They also appeared to promote the idea that without Pan-Am and the 707 the jet age was doomed. A brief mention of the DH Comet being first was swamped later by labouring the point of it's later tragedies.
As for the fictional Pan-Am series.
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I think it is safe to say there was some "poetic licence" in the documentary. As TURIN rightly points out the original 747 design came from a military requirement, which was to be fulfilled by the C-5A. However Pan Am was instrumental in Boeing developing the 747 as a passenger aircraft and highly influenced the design. Arguably had they not done so, then the 747 may not have come about, or at least not as soon as it did.
As for the Comet, I guess we should be grateful it got a mention. Sadly its early problems played in to the hands of Boeing (and Douglas) who produced true transatlantic capable aircraft that DH could simply not compete with.
As for the Comet, I guess we should be grateful it got a mention. Sadly its early problems played in to the hands of Boeing (and Douglas) who produced true transatlantic capable aircraft that DH could simply not compete with.
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I heard someone from Boeing saying that when they were developing the 747 there was a strong body of opinion in the airline business that the future of passenger aircraft would be supersonic (the US, Europe, and Russia were developing SSTs back then but none had yet flown), and the back-up plan if that happened was to market the 747 as a civilian freighter.
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BOAC Comet 4 vs. Pan Am early 707 Transatlantic
I think both types had to use Gander depending on winds...the first 6 Pan Am 707s were -100 domestic models...LIFE photos of 1st Comet transatlantic departure on links
jet kauffman - Google Search
kauffman comet - Google Search
http://images.google.com/search?q=atlantic+kauffman&q=source%3Alife&biw=1236&bih=500&tbm=isch#q=atlantic+kauffman+source: life&hl=en&tbm=isch&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=517de02 f394e05b7&biw=1440&bih=688
jet kauffman - Google Search
kauffman comet - Google Search
http://images.google.com/search?q=atlantic+kauffman&q=source%3Alife&biw=1236&bih=500&tbm=isch#q=atlantic+kauffman+source: life&hl=en&tbm=isch&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=517de02 f394e05b7&biw=1440&bih=688