DL / NW / PA Interchange Flights
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DL / NW / PA Interchange Flights
I seem to remember that Delta amnd Northwest operated interchange flights with Pan Am up to the early 70s, with DL flying from New Orleans and Houston to Washington and PA onwards to Heathrow. Similarly NW operated from Minneapolis to Detroit and PA onwards to Heathrow. I am told thay you could sometimes see a DC8 in DL livery or a 707 in NW livery in at Heathrow.
Can anyone with a long memory confirm this? Presumably they would have been through flights. Did DL / NW crews ever reach Heathrow?
Can anyone with a long memory confirm this? Presumably they would have been through flights. Did DL / NW crews ever reach Heathrow?
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Delta aircraft did indeed visit Heathrow. As I vaguely recall (subject to correction), there were DC-8s for a period late 1960s and then 747-100s for a brief period mid-1970s. These were designated as Pan Am flights. Not sure about crews, however.
Also not sure about Northwest aircraft. I rather doubt it in this case (although Northwest cargo aircraft, eg. 747s, visited Heathrow in the 1970s).
Also not sure about Northwest aircraft. I rather doubt it in this case (although Northwest cargo aircraft, eg. 747s, visited Heathrow in the 1970s).
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Peter47,
"Similarly NW operated from Minneapolis to Detroit and PA onwards to Heathrow"
"Can anyone with a long memory confirm this?"
I have just "exhumed" my Letts Diary 1971 from a cupboard, disturbing a few spiders.
EGLL 1st January 1971 N377US 707-351.B
7th January 1971 N372US 707-351.C
The last NW I saw was N371US 707-351.C on 31st March 1971.
Total seen was 24.
Ciarain.
"Similarly NW operated from Minneapolis to Detroit and PA onwards to Heathrow"
"Can anyone with a long memory confirm this?"
I have just "exhumed" my Letts Diary 1971 from a cupboard, disturbing a few spiders.
EGLL 1st January 1971 N377US 707-351.B
7th January 1971 N372US 707-351.C
The last NW I saw was N371US 707-351.C on 31st March 1971.
Total seen was 24.
Ciarain.
"Interchange flights"
The way it worked was that the aircraft itself worked through, but the crews changed over to those who "owned" that particular section of the flight.
You will notice that Northwest had 707s, Delta had DC8s, and Pan Am had both types, so flights were able to be crewed apprporiately throughout. The Pan Am aircraft rotated onto their other routes at Heathrow to get back to their maintenance base.
At first Pan Am aircraft always seemed to be operated throughout, and thus reached places like New Orleans and Minneapolis where they did not normally appear. Subsequently the arrangements were changed, and each airline operated a number of flights proportional to their own mileage on the overall route, which meant that Pan Am did about two-thirds, and the interchange partner did about one-third. The way this was done was that one airline's aircraft would typically operate the route for some months, then it would cut over to the other's aircraft, balancing out over time.
The Delta interchange lasted into 747 days, I seem to recall there being photos somewhere on the web of Delta 747s at Heathrow. I do not believe there were an dual markings on the aircraft.
There was a long tradition of doing this sort of arrangement on US domestic flights as well, in the days when route licences were tightly controlled by the CAB, and two carriers had end-on-end route licences into a midpoint city. The most complex example was from New York down to the west coast of Latin America, where National operated New York to Miami, Pan Am Miami to Panama, and Panagra (half owned by Pan Am) south of Panama, all the way down to Buenos Aires. This lasted through a range of piston-engined types (where all three possessed the same ones) and through into DC8 days, which again all three operated, and crews were changed at the various points, the aircraft working through.
You will notice that Northwest had 707s, Delta had DC8s, and Pan Am had both types, so flights were able to be crewed apprporiately throughout. The Pan Am aircraft rotated onto their other routes at Heathrow to get back to their maintenance base.
At first Pan Am aircraft always seemed to be operated throughout, and thus reached places like New Orleans and Minneapolis where they did not normally appear. Subsequently the arrangements were changed, and each airline operated a number of flights proportional to their own mileage on the overall route, which meant that Pan Am did about two-thirds, and the interchange partner did about one-third. The way this was done was that one airline's aircraft would typically operate the route for some months, then it would cut over to the other's aircraft, balancing out over time.
The Delta interchange lasted into 747 days, I seem to recall there being photos somewhere on the web of Delta 747s at Heathrow. I do not believe there were an dual markings on the aircraft.
There was a long tradition of doing this sort of arrangement on US domestic flights as well, in the days when route licences were tightly controlled by the CAB, and two carriers had end-on-end route licences into a midpoint city. The most complex example was from New York down to the west coast of Latin America, where National operated New York to Miami, Pan Am Miami to Panama, and Panagra (half owned by Pan Am) south of Panama, all the way down to Buenos Aires. This lasted through a range of piston-engined types (where all three possessed the same ones) and through into DC8 days, which again all three operated, and crews were changed at the various points, the aircraft working through.
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Thanks Guys, very interesting replies. As a subsequent question, does anyone know if in the days before glass cockpits if there were any differences between the cockpit layout between airlines and whether that caused problems with pilots operating "foreign" aircraft?
I believe there were three Pan Am interchanges from London.
PA 107 with Delta, DC8, later 747, operating London-Washington-Atlanta-New Orleans. When the 747 came along the main aircraft did not operate beyond Atlanta, the sector on to New Orleans being operated by a connecting Delta DC9 but on the same flight number. Here's a Delta 747 at Heathrow, with a BA Trident just vsible beyond the nose on the left
Photos: Boeing 747-132 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
PA 59 with Braniff, 707, operating London-Chicago-Dallas-Houston.
PA 55 with Northwest, 707, operating London-Detroit-Minneapolis.
The Braniff one was the first, operating by 1963. 10 years later, in 1973, it had gone, but the other two were now operating.
PA 107 with Delta, DC8, later 747, operating London-Washington-Atlanta-New Orleans. When the 747 came along the main aircraft did not operate beyond Atlanta, the sector on to New Orleans being operated by a connecting Delta DC9 but on the same flight number. Here's a Delta 747 at Heathrow, with a BA Trident just vsible beyond the nose on the left
Photos: Boeing 747-132 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
PA 59 with Braniff, 707, operating London-Chicago-Dallas-Houston.
PA 55 with Northwest, 707, operating London-Detroit-Minneapolis.
The Braniff one was the first, operating by 1963. 10 years later, in 1973, it had gone, but the other two were now operating.
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Would they have to use Pan Am's 707-321B/C's for commonality, or could the turbojet -321s be used on interchange flights?
Photos of Pan Am 707s in DAL at the Braniff terminal always seem to show 321Bs/Cs
Photos of Pan Am 707s in DAL at the Braniff terminal always seem to show 321Bs/Cs
Once the 707-321B/Cs started to come on line the older turbojet -321s were dropped back onto shorter flights with less overall daily hours, such as to the Caribbean, as even at the low fuel prices of those days their additional fuel expense was noticeable.
Differences in flight deck layout were more common then than nowadays, Boeing would put quite notably custom layouts (and even airframe mods) in for each customer (which must have driven the manufacturing side mad), so there must at the least have been some differences training even if it was all on the same licence. However, no worse than carriers that built up fleets with a range of secondhand aircraft from different origins. I bet there were differences in galley etc equipment and layout as well. The Panagra DC8s, for example, that operated under National's flight numbers from New York to Miami were notably better laid out in the cabin than National's own domestic fleet on the route.
Differences in flight deck layout were more common then than nowadays, Boeing would put quite notably custom layouts (and even airframe mods) in for each customer (which must have driven the manufacturing side mad), so there must at the least have been some differences training even if it was all on the same licence. However, no worse than carriers that built up fleets with a range of secondhand aircraft from different origins. I bet there were differences in galley etc equipment and layout as well. The Panagra DC8s, for example, that operated under National's flight numbers from New York to Miami were notably better laid out in the cabin than National's own domestic fleet on the route.
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As I recall it Pan Am sold off their DC-8s about 1968, some to Delta and it was these that flew the Delta/Pan Am interchage flights about 1970. Shots here of N8148A (ex N814PA) 1971, N8184A(exN818PA) which was resprayed into Pan Am colours 1970, Delta 747 rotating on 28L about 1973, and a Northwest 707 on 28L 1971
Last edited by A30yoyo; 29th Jan 2013 at 21:56.
