The first flight of the Spitfire - K5054
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The first flight of the Spitfire - K5054
Who is right and who is wrong?
On March 6th, 75 years ago today Jeffrey Quill flew Mutt Summers from Brooklands to Eastleigh aerodrome to fly K5054 on its first flight. I quote from JQ's book, "Spitfire - A Test Pilot's Story" as follows:
However, Caroline Grace commemorated the first flight as being 5th March 1936. A fundamental error. But how can it be that the wrong day was chosen to celebrate one of the most important dates in the history of aviation?
Could it be that JQ has it wrong? It seems very unlikely to me. So why was 5th March chosen with all the history that Southampton has about Supermarine ready to hand. Was it a mistake? If so by whom.
On March 6th, 75 years ago today Jeffrey Quill flew Mutt Summers from Brooklands to Eastleigh aerodrome to fly K5054 on its first flight. I quote from JQ's book, "Spitfire - A Test Pilot's Story" as follows:
Popular folklore has it that the first flight of the Spitfire was 5 March 1936 but I flew Mutt to Eastleigh for the particular purpose of making that first flight on 6 March.
Could it be that JQ has it wrong? It seems very unlikely to me. So why was 5th March chosen with all the history that Southampton has about Supermarine ready to hand. Was it a mistake? If so by whom.
The RAF Museum at Cosford also celebrated the Spitfire's 75th anniversary on Saturday 5th March. Unfortunately their planned commemorative flypast was cancelled due to poor weather.
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PP, a Pandoras box you open perhaps? The 5th seems to be the prevailing wisdom, but Bill Sweetman in "The Great Book of WWII Airplanes" quotes both the 5th and 6th in different places.
From Supermarine Spitfire - The Prototype - K5054
Some publications state the flight took place AM, rather than PM stated above.
"Spitfire - The History" by Morgan & Shacklady quotes the 5th. Quill wrote the foreward to the book, so one wonders how much attention he may have given to the content. The publication states the "Air Ministry Certificate of Design" was issued on the 6th March. Would this be issued pre or post first flight? Thinking laterally, perhaps the 5th v 6th debate could possibly have arisen from misreading 5 v 6 on a Gestetner copy of a type written document of the period.
In any event, if you wish to be really pedantic, the aircraft was not known as the Spitfire at the time, but was referred to as the Type 300, the F 7/30(modified) or F 7/30(F 7/34 modified). Supermarine had written to the Ministry on 10th March asking for the name Spitfire to be reserved. The initial reply had been "It has been noted for consideration when, and if, an order is placed for this aircraft." Not until 10th June was Supermarine advised by the Air Ministry that approval for the use of the name Spitfire was given. (Spitfire - The History)
What is the truth? Historians will never be out of work it seems.
From Supermarine Spitfire - The Prototype - K5054
There has been much debate upon the exact date that this flight took place although the Spitfire historian Alfred Price uncovered a hand written report of the expenditure on the Spitfire programme dated 29 February 1936 amounting to £14,637 on which is hand written "flown 5 March 1936".
Bearing in mind that Reginald Mitchell was such a stickler for detail, and the fact that he would have attended the Board meeting on 2 April 1936 at which this certificate was presented, it can be taken that the Spitfire's first flight was on 5 March 1936 at Eastleigh. This has now been confirmed by the discovery of an original file, thought to have been destroyed, which reveals that the first flight lasted just 8 minutes starting at 4.35pm.
Bearing in mind that Reginald Mitchell was such a stickler for detail, and the fact that he would have attended the Board meeting on 2 April 1936 at which this certificate was presented, it can be taken that the Spitfire's first flight was on 5 March 1936 at Eastleigh. This has now been confirmed by the discovery of an original file, thought to have been destroyed, which reveals that the first flight lasted just 8 minutes starting at 4.35pm.
"Spitfire - The History" by Morgan & Shacklady quotes the 5th. Quill wrote the foreward to the book, so one wonders how much attention he may have given to the content. The publication states the "Air Ministry Certificate of Design" was issued on the 6th March. Would this be issued pre or post first flight? Thinking laterally, perhaps the 5th v 6th debate could possibly have arisen from misreading 5 v 6 on a Gestetner copy of a type written document of the period.
In any event, if you wish to be really pedantic, the aircraft was not known as the Spitfire at the time, but was referred to as the Type 300, the F 7/30(modified) or F 7/30(F 7/34 modified). Supermarine had written to the Ministry on 10th March asking for the name Spitfire to be reserved. The initial reply had been "It has been noted for consideration when, and if, an order is placed for this aircraft." Not until 10th June was Supermarine advised by the Air Ministry that approval for the use of the name Spitfire was given. (Spitfire - The History)
What is the truth? Historians will never be out of work it seems.
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Unless Jeffrey Quill had made a mistake with the date, which does seem doubtful bearing in mind that he flew Mutt Summers to Eastleigh in a Falcon for the express purpose of flying K5054. It is almost impossible to refute that statement. JQ states that on 6th March he flew the Falcon to Martlesham to pick up Mutt Summers to take him to Eastleigh. On the same day, at Eastleigh, JQ flew R J Mitchell's assistant designer Major Payn for a jolly in the Falcon. Later in the afternoon he flew back to Brooklands with Mutt Summers where they retired to the Brooklands members bar. It is difficult to believe that the dates of these events could in some way have been 'lost.'
What is curious though is that people seem to have ignored Jeffrey Quill's account altogether. Yet there it is in black and white - as, of course, with many other black and white versions.
Did anybody, I wonder, ever get to view Vickers records?
What is curious though is that people seem to have ignored Jeffrey Quill's account altogether. Yet there it is in black and white - as, of course, with many other black and white versions.
Did anybody, I wonder, ever get to view Vickers records?
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".....and Jeffrey Quill at one stage thought it must have taken place on the 6th March, since this was the day that he flew Mutt Summers, the Vickers chief test pilot, to Eastleigh. But then a set of faded Supermarine reports was found at Hursley House,.......Among these papers, now lodged in the Southampton Hall of Aviation, was the Spitfire's test-flight record, which showed categorically that the prototype first flew on the 5 March 1936." - extract Portrait of a legend Spitfire by Leo McKinstry.
Just found a copy of the Test flight record no. R/300/1 for F.37/34 Fighter - K5054 dated 18 March 1936.
It says flight no. 1 was carried out on 5.3.36, (approx time) 16.35, time in air 8 min., Pilot J. Summers.
I won't post it because i'm not sure of any ownership/copyright issues but i did get it from the web.
Just found a copy of the Test flight record no. R/300/1 for F.37/34 Fighter - K5054 dated 18 March 1936.
It says flight no. 1 was carried out on 5.3.36, (approx time) 16.35, time in air 8 min., Pilot J. Summers.
I won't post it because i'm not sure of any ownership/copyright issues but i did get it from the web.
Last edited by spook; 7th Mar 2011 at 12:31. Reason: Found copy of the test flight record
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Well, this is now very interesting. Thanks spook.
Here is the link to wikipedia:
Joseph Summers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It mentions the flight by Quill from Martlesham to Eastleigh in a Miles Falcon - just as Quill does - but as being 5th March 1936. Suggesting that Jeffrey Quill did make a mistake. A very important one too.
Here is the link to wikipedia:
Joseph Summers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It mentions the flight by Quill from Martlesham to Eastleigh in a Miles Falcon - just as Quill does - but as being 5th March 1936. Suggesting that Jeffrey Quill did make a mistake. A very important one too.
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Idle thought while having a shower just now - 1936 would have been a leap year.
Could it be that Quill simply reset the date on his watch to 1st March on the 29th February?
By the way, I know nothing about antique time pieces, so I'm rather assuming that a quality watch of that era would include a calendar!
Could it be that Quill simply reset the date on his watch to 1st March on the 29th February?
By the way, I know nothing about antique time pieces, so I'm rather assuming that a quality watch of that era would include a calendar!
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If you type in K5054 log book in google - third response down -first flight K5054 -Key Publishing Aviation Forum - this should bring up the test flight record. It looks as though the same discussion was had back in 2009.
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That works log book does it then. Jeffrey Quill was mistaken. Impossible to argue with so we might have given historians something to think about, especially when you think how thorough test pilots are with notes.
Don't know about dates on watches in those days Treaders - we can chat about it over a beer though - long time since eh!
Don't know about dates on watches in those days Treaders - we can chat about it over a beer though - long time since eh!
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1936 was a leap year and 5th March was a Thursday.
It is possible that Saturday 29th February was noted as being the 1st March and hence the inevitable confusion.
Chiarain.
It is possible that Saturday 29th February was noted as being the 1st March and hence the inevitable confusion.
Chiarain.
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All things are possible it seems.
Another here - scroll down: What Happened on March 6th This Day in History
Another here - scroll down: What Happened on March 6th This Day in History
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"The Spitfire Story", Alfred Price/Arms and Armour, page 36 shows a document, prepared for the board of directors of Vickers, outlining the costs of building the "Modified Single-Seater K.5054".
This was presented at the board meeting that took place on 2nd April 1936. Against the heading "Expenditure to first flight" was the note "not yet flown", but beside it , in the hand writing of the Company secretary Henry Duvall, "Flew 5 Mar 36".
Ciarain.
This was presented at the board meeting that took place on 2nd April 1936. Against the heading "Expenditure to first flight" was the note "not yet flown", but beside it , in the hand writing of the Company secretary Henry Duvall, "Flew 5 Mar 36".
Ciarain.
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Is Mutt Summers Log Book still in existence?
In a museum? Family?
I don't think I have ever seen a book on Mutt Summers He gets a mention in various Spitfire Books but nothing on or by the man himself. I don't recall seeing an autograph either.
In a museum? Family?
I don't think I have ever seen a book on Mutt Summers He gets a mention in various Spitfire Books but nothing on or by the man himself. I don't recall seeing an autograph either.
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First flight of K5054
Hi, All:
We have a copy of "Mutt" Summers log book at the Brooklands Museum... One of the Library staff wrote a resume of Summers Logbook, and the resume below comes from the "additional" information from J S's Logbook. Although It certainly appeared that Quill was a day out with the comments made in his book, the Summers entry was written some time later, ie after the 22nd of October 1936 by his Secretary! Maybe she was a day out. Also, if Summers had flown to Martlesham on the 5th of March, would he have then gone down to Eastleigh and flown the prototype of a new fighter later the same day??....
"First of these was the Supermarine Spitfire prototype (K5054),
which Summers took up for its first flight at Eastleigh in early
March. The precise date on which this momentous event occurred is still the subject of some debate, since surviving records are incomplete. "Mutt" Summers own log book, in which it should be noted that many of the entries were made by others on his behalf, merely states that between 5th March and 22nd October 1936 he completed twenty hours of experimental flying on the Spitfire at Southampton (i.e. Eastleigh). It also states that on 5th March1936, before going to Southampton, he flew theG4/31 prototype (K7556) from Brooklands to Martlesham".
Feel free to PM me, anyone...
Ttfn,IFPS man
We have a copy of "Mutt" Summers log book at the Brooklands Museum... One of the Library staff wrote a resume of Summers Logbook, and the resume below comes from the "additional" information from J S's Logbook. Although It certainly appeared that Quill was a day out with the comments made in his book, the Summers entry was written some time later, ie after the 22nd of October 1936 by his Secretary! Maybe she was a day out. Also, if Summers had flown to Martlesham on the 5th of March, would he have then gone down to Eastleigh and flown the prototype of a new fighter later the same day??....
"First of these was the Supermarine Spitfire prototype (K5054),
which Summers took up for its first flight at Eastleigh in early
March. The precise date on which this momentous event occurred is still the subject of some debate, since surviving records are incomplete. "Mutt" Summers own log book, in which it should be noted that many of the entries were made by others on his behalf, merely states that between 5th March and 22nd October 1936 he completed twenty hours of experimental flying on the Spitfire at Southampton (i.e. Eastleigh). It also states that on 5th March1936, before going to Southampton, he flew theG4/31 prototype (K7556) from Brooklands to Martlesham".
Feel free to PM me, anyone...
Ttfn,IFPS man
Last edited by IFPS man; 11th Mar 2011 at 12:55.
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You know what? This could go on and on. IFSP man certainly shows how it could. However, I find it hard to dispute the works test record typed by someone at Supermarine, indeed, I cannot see how it can be disputed and 'Mutts' own log is so far spread over a period of time that a mistake could be made.
ON THE OTHER HAND.................if Mutt summers went to Martlesham on 5th March and JQ followed him in the Falcon - and bought him back to Eastleigh it also follows that Mutt Summers could not have flown K5054 until later in the day, which he did. But, of course, you can transpose that sentence to March 6th also.
Its the supermarine test flight log for me although I feel sorry that JQ is now in dispute but it doesn't detract from his brilliance as a TP and, therefore, one of the greats.
ON THE OTHER HAND.................if Mutt summers went to Martlesham on 5th March and JQ followed him in the Falcon - and bought him back to Eastleigh it also follows that Mutt Summers could not have flown K5054 until later in the day, which he did. But, of course, you can transpose that sentence to March 6th also.
Its the supermarine test flight log for me although I feel sorry that JQ is now in dispute but it doesn't detract from his brilliance as a TP and, therefore, one of the greats.
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PP, even the best make errors, Ernest Gann saying the airport on the opposite side of the river to the Taj Mahal - not so, same side. Saint-Exupéry that the green nav light is on the left. I think the evidence would seem to be overwhelmingly settled on the 5th. Pity that a document can not be found which says "Thursday", which would settle the score.
