Empire of the Clouds: When Britain's Aircraft Ruled the World
I never flew in Concorde (notice, nobody ever says a Concorde) but just to stand in my Cornish garden 30 years ago and hear the sonic boom as she decelerated inbound near the Scillies, or to stand in my brother's garden near Reading and watch her climbing out from Heathrow was worth every tax £1 I contributed to her. Nobody can seriously argue that Concorde was ever an economic proposition, but that misses the point entirely.
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Minister of Supply A.Jones visited Paris,6/59 and “suggested we jointly develop (an SST). I had become weary of Treasury’s cancellation of most aircraft projects (They) might find it difficult to cancel a (joint) project (I) believed we had made a mistake holding ourselves aloof from (EEC. PM Macmillan) was so, still, so Cabinet “laughed with derision” at this contact. (Later) attempts were made to involve (US in it: ) I would have been opposed for I attached importance to the construction of (Euro-Aero) to compete more effectively with (US)” K.Owen: Concorde & the Americans, Airlife, 1997, P18, and (Ed),P.54, ICBH Concorde Witness Seminar 19/11/98, pub.2002.
So, this Minister endorsed SSD's extract from the SST site: "the foundation of (today's) European aviation industry (is) all thanks to Concorde, and the skills and knowledge that this brought."
TTN says: "Nobody can seriously argue that Concorde was ever an economic proposition, but that misses the point entirely": his "point" being (I take it) that UK (& France) did Concorde for the climber's Everest reason - because it is there (i.e: it had become technologically feasible, so we should do it before some other guy does). That is the thrust of Empire of the Clouds as a whole: Just do it...because you can.
Aero exists despite, not because of business investment norms. Chairman T.Wilson: by 1972 Boeing had “sold c.$20Bn. of commercial airplanes and hadn’t made any money (an) absolute basket case on 737 (great early) difficulties on 747” R.J.Serling,Legend & Legacy,St.Martin’s Press, 1992, P.385. As for the Operators: R.Branson (et al): "How to make a small fortune in the airline business? Start with a large one."
So, this Minister endorsed SSD's extract from the SST site: "the foundation of (today's) European aviation industry (is) all thanks to Concorde, and the skills and knowledge that this brought."
TTN says: "Nobody can seriously argue that Concorde was ever an economic proposition, but that misses the point entirely": his "point" being (I take it) that UK (& France) did Concorde for the climber's Everest reason - because it is there (i.e: it had become technologically feasible, so we should do it before some other guy does). That is the thrust of Empire of the Clouds as a whole: Just do it...because you can.
Aero exists despite, not because of business investment norms. Chairman T.Wilson: by 1972 Boeing had “sold c.$20Bn. of commercial airplanes and hadn’t made any money (an) absolute basket case on 737 (great early) difficulties on 747” R.J.Serling,Legend & Legacy,St.Martin’s Press, 1992, P.385. As for the Operators: R.Branson (et al): "How to make a small fortune in the airline business? Start with a large one."
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Although I can not contribute regarding the book (I will try and purchase it however) or the demise of UK Aviation (I am only a mere fledgling at 37) , I have one of the few advantages that I work at the edge of Melbourn village within a couple of miles of Duxford Museum and within half a mile of Fowlmere aerodrome.
From spring to autumn there is always something in the sky and there is nothing like the sound of a Merlin engine at full chat on a hot summers day with the office windows open !
Had to imagine at this time of the year I know but my point is that seeing so many types of UK and US aircraft 'practising' in the sky still puts a smile on my face.
I guess I am enjoying it while we all can.
Sorry for the thread drift.
From spring to autumn there is always something in the sky and there is nothing like the sound of a Merlin engine at full chat on a hot summers day with the office windows open !
Had to imagine at this time of the year I know but my point is that seeing so many types of UK and US aircraft 'practising' in the sky still puts a smile on my face.
I guess I am enjoying it while we all can.
Sorry for the thread drift.
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I too believe Concorde is wonderful, but it is the latter day equivalent of the Pyramids. Some may think it's worth every tax £ spent on it; others may disagree. My heart says it was worth it - my head doesn't.
I too believe Concorde is wonderful, but it is the latter day equivalent of the Pyramids. Some may think it's worth every tax £ spent on it; others may disagree. My heart says it was worth it - my head doesn't.
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Hey, I'm 74 and loved it. My Farnborough equivalent is that I was at the air show when "Idlewild" (today KJFK) opened, when a low pass by an F-80 blew off Harry Truman's hat.
During my time with Jersey Airlines Operations at Croydon we used Herons and Doves on the Croydon Jersey routes - other than when heavily booked or overbooked then the twin-engined Rapide would be sent over. I cannot recall that the four-engined version
DH86 Express was ever in use during that period - although others may be
able to confirm otherwise.
DH86 Express was ever in use during that period - although others may be
able to confirm otherwise.
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re. DH86, were they used after the crash of G-ACZN in 1938? They were also using the DH 95 in May 39, I have an interesting book Jersey Airport the first 50 years 1937-1987 about the types used on channel Island routes.
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empire of the clouds
have just finished the book and what it mentions is just a small snapshot of how we just could not make some aircraft production
I worked on the Comet 4 production at Hatfield and it was a bit like Steptoe's junkyard .
When the fuse was brought in to be united with its wings, it sat on two wheels that looked as though they were pinched off a barrow boy.
To prevent the tail from roof damage it was tied down by rope to a large concrete block and the result was an aircraft fuse nose pointing skywards .
Ground equipment to work on the aircraft was mostly WW2 ladders.
They used to say that final assembly was a rush to get the plane out of the hangar ASAP to beat the numerous mods that appeared every day to be incorporated .
One day all our drawings were whisked away and returned with the
Copyright sign stamped on them, suggesting that up to that time anyone could have copied them .
I also worked on the Handley Page Victor B2 wings at Radlett and have to confess that for thirteen months I was lucky if I did about 2 hrs work a day. (one of the reasons I left ) it was so disorganised and I lost count of how many Toolboxes I was told to make, so I looked to be doing something .
Interchangability in both camps was useless, a file and tinsnips were a must, to make things fit.
Other things that did not help our industry at that time was we were trying to produce aircraft in WW2 sheds for that was about all they were.
Such a pity because we did have the brains and skills but alas we gave them away for other countries to benefit.
Aircraft maintainence however was well respected but wages were rubbish
Merv
I worked on the Comet 4 production at Hatfield and it was a bit like Steptoe's junkyard .
When the fuse was brought in to be united with its wings, it sat on two wheels that looked as though they were pinched off a barrow boy.
To prevent the tail from roof damage it was tied down by rope to a large concrete block and the result was an aircraft fuse nose pointing skywards .
Ground equipment to work on the aircraft was mostly WW2 ladders.
They used to say that final assembly was a rush to get the plane out of the hangar ASAP to beat the numerous mods that appeared every day to be incorporated .
One day all our drawings were whisked away and returned with the
Copyright sign stamped on them, suggesting that up to that time anyone could have copied them .
I also worked on the Handley Page Victor B2 wings at Radlett and have to confess that for thirteen months I was lucky if I did about 2 hrs work a day. (one of the reasons I left ) it was so disorganised and I lost count of how many Toolboxes I was told to make, so I looked to be doing something .
Interchangability in both camps was useless, a file and tinsnips were a must, to make things fit.
Other things that did not help our industry at that time was we were trying to produce aircraft in WW2 sheds for that was about all they were.
Such a pity because we did have the brains and skills but alas we gave them away for other countries to benefit.
Aircraft maintainence however was well respected but wages were rubbish
Merv
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Received the book as a Xmas present.
Thoroughly good read and I recommend it.
Incredible what was accomplished post war and sad that this cannot be repeated in modern England. An irrevocable loss of industry, wealth creation and national pride.
.....and now no more Harriers.
Thoroughly good read and I recommend it.
Incredible what was accomplished post war and sad that this cannot be repeated in modern England. An irrevocable loss of industry, wealth creation and national pride.
.....and now no more Harriers.
Last edited by kluge; 8th Jan 2011 at 02:27.
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I have a DVD in my collection, Farnborough the Golden Years 1949-1959. It's a compilation of the Pathe Newreels of the time relating to the latest and greatest on show at Farnborough for each year. Apparently the actual newreel films is held in the archives of the Imperial War Museum. Amazon have it at Farnborough - The Golden Years 1949 To 1959 [DVD]: Amazon.co.uk: Farnborough - the Golden Years: DVD . For anyone with an interest in such things well worth buying.
"By that time the 'Mericans had developed the magnetron, which allowed for pretty high power outputs at low wavelengths..."
The cavity magnetron was invented in America, but it was a couple of scientists in Birmingham that got it to work. Have you invented something if it doesn't work?
I received the book for Christmas too and am thoroughly enjoying it. It possibly puts a rose tint on certain things but I do too.
The cavity magnetron was invented in America, but it was a couple of scientists in Birmingham that got it to work. Have you invented something if it doesn't work?
I received the book for Christmas too and am thoroughly enjoying it. It possibly puts a rose tint on certain things but I do too.
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Further to the Cavity Magtron as used in RADAR - and the American
connection - Would this be the same C M for which the British staged
a daring raid on Bruneval early in WW2 in order to seize it - If so
were the British unaware the C M was available in the US ?
...
connection - Would this be the same C M for which the British staged
a daring raid on Bruneval early in WW2 in order to seize it - If so
were the British unaware the C M was available in the US ?
...
I've a book about the Bruneval raid somewhere but it's years since I've read it. The raid was to find out German radar capabilities as I recall.
A quick Google says the Wurzburg radar used a Klystron. The cavity magnetron was needed for centimetric radar.
A quick Google says the Wurzburg radar used a Klystron. The cavity magnetron was needed for centimetric radar.
Re the Bruneval raid, the Würzburg had been spotted by a PR Spitfire in a very vulnerable position on the cliff top and the raid was organized to recover as much of the radar as possible. An excellent write-up is in RV Jones wonderful book "Most Secret War".
One of the outcomes of the raid was that the radar boffins at TRE Worth Matravers on the Dorset coast realized they were vulnerable too and made a hasty retreat to Malvern College.
German radar researchers didn't have any cavity magnetrons until H2S units were recovered from crashed Lancasters
One of the outcomes of the raid was that the radar boffins at TRE Worth Matravers on the Dorset coast realized they were vulnerable too and made a hasty retreat to Malvern College.
German radar researchers didn't have any cavity magnetrons until H2S units were recovered from crashed Lancasters
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Acc. to a german book I have read on the subject, the main thing the brits found out from the raid was a) the rotating dipol, that apparently allowed for a more focussed radar beam and was new to them and that b) the german radar system had fixed frequencies, which made the 'windows' [stanniol strips] (or in german 'düppel') very bad news for the german radar defense system.
Thats one other irony actually, the germans had the knowledge about windows first, but Göring himself forbid any scientific work on them in order to keep it secret from the brits. Apparently the nazis thought the brits were all third or forthclass scientists...until they taught us differently.
correct, thats why the germans called it "Rotterdamgerät"
It was discovered after shortly after being introduced, IIRC something like 3 weeks after it entered service with the RAF. But the allied luck held, the parts from the Rotterdam crash had been almost put together in a lab, then the lab was bombed (pure coinsidence) and the german scientist need another 5-6 months to really know what the magnetron was capable off.
Thats one other irony actually, the germans had the knowledge about windows first, but Göring himself forbid any scientific work on them in order to keep it secret from the brits. Apparently the nazis thought the brits were all third or forthclass scientists...until they taught us differently.
German radar researchers didn't have any cavity magnetrons until H2S units were recovered from crashed Lancasters
It was discovered after shortly after being introduced, IIRC something like 3 weeks after it entered service with the RAF. But the allied luck held, the parts from the Rotterdam crash had been almost put together in a lab, then the lab was bombed (pure coinsidence) and the german scientist need another 5-6 months to really know what the magnetron was capable off.
Last edited by His dudeness; 11th Jan 2011 at 15:31.
I'm trying hard to think of which types actually "ruled the world".
Long-haul types, apart from in penny numbers, never seemed to sell beyond British carriers.
Short-haul, the Viscount, the One-Eleven and the 146/RJ made some sales, but were always outnumbered anywhere you looked (apart from in Britain) by US types, and as their periods didn't really overlap there were plenty of times when nothing British was around.
It would take a little while to count up, but I suspect that Fokker alone made more overseas sales of new aircraft than the entire post-war UK aircraft industry.
Long-haul types, apart from in penny numbers, never seemed to sell beyond British carriers.
Short-haul, the Viscount, the One-Eleven and the 146/RJ made some sales, but were always outnumbered anywhere you looked (apart from in Britain) by US types, and as their periods didn't really overlap there were plenty of times when nothing British was around.
It would take a little while to count up, but I suspect that Fokker alone made more overseas sales of new aircraft than the entire post-war UK aircraft industry.