Heroes....amongst us and we just don't realize it!
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Heroes....amongst us and we just don't realize it!
Every now and then we bump into someone that we are in awe of....and usually we don't understand exactly why. I grew up around a fellow like that. A very gentlemanly and gentle Man, loyal to his wife, deeply in love with her, great Father, good Churchman, and plainly a Leader.
This old fellow went to Canada, joined the RCAF before Pearl Harbor, refused to shift to the US Army Air Corps....flew 25 missions on Lanc's and returned to his home and took up life as though nothing had happened.
The local rag heard of him and recently did a short article about him.
His book, "The Way It Was!", written like a Grandfather talking to his grandson....is a very moving account of his life and experiences.
How many of these gallant old fellows are we losing to old age?
If you know of one.....take the old Coot out for lunch....buy him a Pint....get to know him while you can!
I did....and it meant the world to him.....and to me to have had the honor of hearing his life story first hand.
Former war pilot tells life stories
This old fellow went to Canada, joined the RCAF before Pearl Harbor, refused to shift to the US Army Air Corps....flew 25 missions on Lanc's and returned to his home and took up life as though nothing had happened.
The local rag heard of him and recently did a short article about him.
His book, "The Way It Was!", written like a Grandfather talking to his grandson....is a very moving account of his life and experiences.
How many of these gallant old fellows are we losing to old age?
If you know of one.....take the old Coot out for lunch....buy him a Pint....get to know him while you can!
I did....and it meant the world to him.....and to me to have had the honor of hearing his life story first hand.
Former war pilot tells life stories
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A great story, and your right, SASless........we've got to catch the old buggers PDQ!
One twist in the story though. The 'Lancaster' in the photo is actually a Halifax!
One twist in the story though. The 'Lancaster' in the photo is actually a Halifax!
Thread Starter
The news reporter can be forgiven for not knowing the difference I suppose. His squadron converted to Lanc's and was based at Middleton-St. George (Teeside) as I recall. My copy of his book is with a friend....so I cannot quote the details from memory.
He was with the RCAF 428th Bomb Squadron.
No. 428 Squadron , Canadian Air Force
He was with the RCAF 428th Bomb Squadron.
No. 428 Squadron , Canadian Air Force
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I met two in the last couple of years. One flew Wellingtons on ASW missions in the Gulf of Aden; the other was a Hurricane pilot in Murmansk.
Both hidden corners of the war and both fascinating. The odd thing was neither looked to be even 80 years of age.
Both hidden corners of the war and both fascinating. The odd thing was neither looked to be even 80 years of age.
An excellent thread. Over the course of many years running a shop selling militaria I quite naturally met hundreds of veterans of both world wars (I'm going back 30 years) and other conflicts. A few were obvious liars and braggarts, but the vast majority were quiet modest people who, if drawn out, often had astounding tales to tell. My favourite was a chap who as a merchant seaman had been sunk no less than 5 times, once by an American warship (collision at sea) and once by a V1 in Antwerp!
For a few years I did the lunchtime speaking circuit, where I encouraged those present to talk as much as possible to their ageing relatives and either get them to write it down or to record it, or to do it themselves. Time is even shorter now for the WW2 guys so don't waste any opportunity.
For a few years I did the lunchtime speaking circuit, where I encouraged those present to talk as much as possible to their ageing relatives and either get them to write it down or to record it, or to do it themselves. Time is even shorter now for the WW2 guys so don't waste any opportunity.
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One twist in the story though. The 'Lancaster' in the photo is actually a Halifax!
The caption's fine. Bill Googe, who grew up in Ardmore, is pictured with his squadron from the Royal Canadian Air Force in World War II. Googe piloted the British Lancaster bomber.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Having read the article and looked at the photograph I wonder whether George really did fly the Lancaster or whether the journalist looked at the photograph and thought it was a Lancaster?
It would be easy enough for someone to look up George's sorties in the war diaries and confirm which he flew in.
It would be easy enough for someone to look up George's sorties in the war diaries and confirm which he flew in.
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It's a pity that nostalgia kicks in too late to make the most of it. I left RAF Waddington in late '69 and a couple of years later I was with Bristows in Sumatra. The fortnightly transport between Singapore and Sumatra was by SAATAS QueenAir or Cessna 310 flown by a top rate bunch of Aussies. One of these was Keith Schultz. I cannot believe, now, that we never got around to discussing Keith's time at Waddington. Here he is, going to work with his mates, second fom the left. DFC and Bar.
Air Force News :: Features
PS. Not as if he was stuck for things to talk about.
schultzk
Air Force News :: Features
PS. Not as if he was stuck for things to talk about.
schultzk
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I used to work with a very decent chap, mainly knew him through my Dad playing golf with him, and his owning an MGBGT, the only thing we had in common was we both wrote off our examples !
Ray Grayston turned out to have been a Flight Engineer on the Dam -Busters raid...
Another of our lot was Frank Smith, who had a glass eye after being blown out of a tank in the El Alamein campaign.
Both were quite willing to talk about their experiences, but one had to ask them first, they wouldn't go around mentioning their exploits.
As the gist of this thread says, such people are solid gold, if nothing else drag them off to a pub and buy them a pint saying 'Thank You' at the very least !
Ray Grayston turned out to have been a Flight Engineer on the Dam -Busters raid...
Another of our lot was Frank Smith, who had a glass eye after being blown out of a tank in the El Alamein campaign.
Both were quite willing to talk about their experiences, but one had to ask them first, they wouldn't go around mentioning their exploits.
As the gist of this thread says, such people are solid gold, if nothing else drag them off to a pub and buy them a pint saying 'Thank You' at the very least !
Too late....
Forty years ago, when I first started work in the offshore industry, the company had a commercial manager, called Shannon. Only when he left did I find out he was David Shannon, also late of 617 fame......
Like many of the quiet heroes you've mentioned, he never talked about the unit. he did, however, enjoy the odd sherbert at a social do.......
A real character I'm proud to say I met all that time ago.
Like many of the quiet heroes you've mentioned, he never talked about the unit. he did, however, enjoy the odd sherbert at a social do.......
A real character I'm proud to say I met all that time ago.
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While still in uniform, I used to volunteer to do any remembrance parades or funeral parties for WW2 veterans. There were a little gaggle of us that did this, and it was an ultra rewarding job.
I would do my best to be turned out smart at these occasions, and have my uniform ultra pressed, which was no fun when wearing a great coat!
I loved talking with the veterans and to hear their stories of days gone by. One thing that stood out on every parade was the getting together in the bar or mess afterwords.
Once the lads and ladies had been in the bar for a few minutes, they would order a drink and then get chatting to each other, and then they would magically transform into young people in OAP bodies. I am being serious here, and it has to be seen to be believed, how these folks eyes would literally transform and look youthful and playful again (I am sure many of you know what I mean). The stories that followed this were often told 'of the moment' and the joy of happy times was as clearly evident as the horror of the bad times.
I learned so much about humanity, humility and courage in these conversations, and it has left a lasting impression on me until this day.
A comical example of this was a story told of how a driver woke up in his cab, only to hear someone shouting at him at the top of his voice. He was getting out of the cab to see who it was, only to find it was an RMP screaming at him to get back in. He had fallen asleep at the wheel, and driven off the road, into a mine field!
A very sad example being: I was chatting to one man, who had witnessed the liberation (or not long after) of one of the concentration camps. He and his brother were in the same unit, and were both at the same camp, and saw the same sights. He said that after that time his brother was so horrified at the sight that he stopped talking to anyone, and sank deeper and deeper into depression, and committed suicide not too long after.
I would do my best to be turned out smart at these occasions, and have my uniform ultra pressed, which was no fun when wearing a great coat!
I loved talking with the veterans and to hear their stories of days gone by. One thing that stood out on every parade was the getting together in the bar or mess afterwords.
Once the lads and ladies had been in the bar for a few minutes, they would order a drink and then get chatting to each other, and then they would magically transform into young people in OAP bodies. I am being serious here, and it has to be seen to be believed, how these folks eyes would literally transform and look youthful and playful again (I am sure many of you know what I mean). The stories that followed this were often told 'of the moment' and the joy of happy times was as clearly evident as the horror of the bad times.
I learned so much about humanity, humility and courage in these conversations, and it has left a lasting impression on me until this day.
A comical example of this was a story told of how a driver woke up in his cab, only to hear someone shouting at him at the top of his voice. He was getting out of the cab to see who it was, only to find it was an RMP screaming at him to get back in. He had fallen asleep at the wheel, and driven off the road, into a mine field!
A very sad example being: I was chatting to one man, who had witnessed the liberation (or not long after) of one of the concentration camps. He and his brother were in the same unit, and were both at the same camp, and saw the same sights. He said that after that time his brother was so horrified at the sight that he stopped talking to anyone, and sank deeper and deeper into depression, and committed suicide not too long after.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
BS, aye, I was a Runymede this year. I noticed a car in the car park with a brevet badge. I went up and saw it was the Air Gunners' Association. I nodded at the chap in the car.
A minute or two later he got out with his photo album. He had been a rear gunner aged just 18 and his crew had flown all its missions and not suffered any damage whatever. As he said a lucky crew.
I told him I was ex-Vulcans and he was tickled pink to meet me as he said he had never met anyone on V-bombers before that. Bet he had but never known it.
A minute or two later he got out with his photo album. He had been a rear gunner aged just 18 and his crew had flown all its missions and not suffered any damage whatever. As he said a lucky crew.
I told him I was ex-Vulcans and he was tickled pink to meet me as he said he had never met anyone on V-bombers before that. Bet he had but never known it.
Thread Starter
Pont....can you point me in the direction of the diaries you mentioned?
Googe has his own records and lists his missions by name for most part in his book (which is not at hand unfortunately)...but it would be informative for me to see where his Squadron went and note the losses they suffered. One place I was researching reported a loss of 200 aircraft but I could not determine if it was the Squadron or the Group that had lost that many. It would be mind boggling to think it was the Squadron that could lose that many during the course of the war as the unit would have had what....16-20 aircraft assigned at a time?
In his book...when he listed missions, it was usually just a date and a City name....with more than a few visits to quiet places like Berlin and the like. When something of particular note took place he would be more forthcoming about the mission.
Googe has his own records and lists his missions by name for most part in his book (which is not at hand unfortunately)...but it would be informative for me to see where his Squadron went and note the losses they suffered. One place I was researching reported a loss of 200 aircraft but I could not determine if it was the Squadron or the Group that had lost that many. It would be mind boggling to think it was the Squadron that could lose that many during the course of the war as the unit would have had what....16-20 aircraft assigned at a time?
In his book...when he listed missions, it was usually just a date and a City name....with more than a few visits to quiet places like Berlin and the like. When something of particular note took place he would be more forthcoming about the mission.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
SASLess, I am not sure as it may only list casualties so it might not show crews that survived. There is a set, one for each year of the war, with the 1943 (IIRC) being the thickest, that lists the crew of every aircrft on every raid that was shot down.
What it would list is the aircraft type for his squadron around the time of the Dresden raids. It would also show when the 18 missions in 21 days occurred as it is likely that there would have been a concentration of losses over those raids in a 3 weeks period.
What it would list is the aircraft type for his squadron around the time of the Dresden raids. It would also show when the 18 missions in 21 days occurred as it is likely that there would have been a concentration of losses over those raids in a 3 weeks period.
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Unknown Heros
I am, for my sins, a bit of a yachtie.
For quite a few years, when I visited Emsworth Marina ( South England coast, straddles the border between Hampshire & West Sussex, most choose Hampshire ! ) - there was a Rolls Royce parked a trifle awkwardly by a sign, 'Admiral Gick', who owned and had developed the marina.
I never met him personally, but crassly thought he was another stuffed shirt ( I'd had bad experiences in personal not professional life with a couple ).
It was only when reading his obituary that I learned this was the chap, who with his Swordfish crew, took out the Bismark's rudder !
I would dearly have liked to talk with him, if I had anything to contribute.
A good friend, Charlie Solley, was on the Murmansk convoys, Leading Air Mechanic on Swordfish. He recounted that they had to start the engines on the way up on the lift, as the wind chill would otherwise prevent starting !
The least I could do for Charlie was to say a few words at his funeral. At our mutual sailing club the idiot newsletter editor went against my expressed wishes ( she had a thing against Charlie, while not able to sail out of a wet paper bag herself ) so I went to a little war, posting details of his accomplishments - Follands at Chilbolton before joining Hawkers, becoming Chief Inspector on the Harrier sales tour of South America with John Farley.
John stated ( please excuse me if not 100% accurate John ) " Charlie was
there not for money, not for personal advancement, simply because he could do his bit "
There are quite a few pilots at our little, informal club, mostly ex-RAF then airliner.
They took a great interest in Charlie's career ( he began and ended with engines called Pegasus ) and caused a bit of a stir as to how he didn't get more recognition.
We at the sailing club also had Dennis Warren, who was Chief Draughtsman at Dunsfold - he'd been on the Fairey Delta 2 project, and seemed delighted & surprised when I gave him a copy of Peter Twiss's book, 'Faster Than The Sun'.
Grab such people and take them for a pint while you can...
For quite a few years, when I visited Emsworth Marina ( South England coast, straddles the border between Hampshire & West Sussex, most choose Hampshire ! ) - there was a Rolls Royce parked a trifle awkwardly by a sign, 'Admiral Gick', who owned and had developed the marina.
I never met him personally, but crassly thought he was another stuffed shirt ( I'd had bad experiences in personal not professional life with a couple ).
It was only when reading his obituary that I learned this was the chap, who with his Swordfish crew, took out the Bismark's rudder !
I would dearly have liked to talk with him, if I had anything to contribute.
A good friend, Charlie Solley, was on the Murmansk convoys, Leading Air Mechanic on Swordfish. He recounted that they had to start the engines on the way up on the lift, as the wind chill would otherwise prevent starting !
The least I could do for Charlie was to say a few words at his funeral. At our mutual sailing club the idiot newsletter editor went against my expressed wishes ( she had a thing against Charlie, while not able to sail out of a wet paper bag herself ) so I went to a little war, posting details of his accomplishments - Follands at Chilbolton before joining Hawkers, becoming Chief Inspector on the Harrier sales tour of South America with John Farley.
John stated ( please excuse me if not 100% accurate John ) " Charlie was
there not for money, not for personal advancement, simply because he could do his bit "
There are quite a few pilots at our little, informal club, mostly ex-RAF then airliner.
They took a great interest in Charlie's career ( he began and ended with engines called Pegasus ) and caused a bit of a stir as to how he didn't get more recognition.
We at the sailing club also had Dennis Warren, who was Chief Draughtsman at Dunsfold - he'd been on the Fairey Delta 2 project, and seemed delighted & surprised when I gave him a copy of Peter Twiss's book, 'Faster Than The Sun'.
Grab such people and take them for a pint while you can...
Last edited by Double Zero; 25th Aug 2010 at 14:11.
My Father-in-law was recently 90. Served in the Signals in N Africa, Salerno, Anzio among others. Usually only talks about the funny stuff that happened, occasionally the less funny.
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Reminds me of a Latvian mate of mine whos father flew fighters with the Russian airforce in WW2. Did he ever talk about it to his son? "No. But he used to meet his old airforce mates at our house a couple of times I year, I heard him talking about it then while I was hiding behind the kitchen door."
What were they talking about? "Oh, they were just sitting around eating sausage, drinking vodka, and talking about all the women they screwed during the war."
Plus ca change.
What were they talking about? "Oh, they were just sitting around eating sausage, drinking vodka, and talking about all the women they screwed during the war."
Plus ca change.
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This reminds me of the story which was told to me about a VC holder from World War II whose wife only found out that her husband had won the VC in the late 1950s from the local butcher.
Thread Starter
While digging through some old family documents....ran across a letter from my Grand Dad's Platoon Leader complimenting him on being nominated for the Medal of Honor. More interesting was Grand Dad's reply to the Lieutenant.
Grand Dad down played his actions....and said in his letter..." I felt safe enough going out to bring in the wounded as I knew the Insurgents would be aiming at me." I guess Gramps did not think much of the bad guys' markmanship.
Gramps wound getting the DSC....which for a Private was a pretty big deal in those days!
What he did was go out under fire to retrieve wounded soldiers that had been shot during an ambush by Philippine Rebels in the Philippine Insurrection circa 1898-1900 time frame.
Shame....I never got to meet Grand Dad before he died.
Grand Dad down played his actions....and said in his letter..." I felt safe enough going out to bring in the wounded as I knew the Insurgents would be aiming at me." I guess Gramps did not think much of the bad guys' markmanship.
Gramps wound getting the DSC....which for a Private was a pretty big deal in those days!
What he did was go out under fire to retrieve wounded soldiers that had been shot during an ambush by Philippine Rebels in the Philippine Insurrection circa 1898-1900 time frame.
Shame....I never got to meet Grand Dad before he died.
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There are things we can do. In a pretty informal arrangement our local RBL organiser will call up members to see if they will run one of the few WWII veterans left in the town to the hospital, doctors, shopping or whatever. While the local ambulance transport is quite efficient the old boys prefer to be taken by someone they know. These trips invariable end up in a pub where the banter and stories can be superb (even if it is the tenth time you have heard it).
One lad who must be nearly 90 (1st Army. Tunisia, Salerno, Germany, Holland) insists on marching in the parade every rememberance sunday. For the last few years he has been placed in the middle rank and to be honest he has been supported/carried from either side. No matter, he insists so he will carry on doing it until we have to wheel him about.
Easy to combine a bit of useful help with a great deal of pleasure.
One lad who must be nearly 90 (1st Army. Tunisia, Salerno, Germany, Holland) insists on marching in the parade every rememberance sunday. For the last few years he has been placed in the middle rank and to be honest he has been supported/carried from either side. No matter, he insists so he will carry on doing it until we have to wheel him about.
Easy to combine a bit of useful help with a great deal of pleasure.