Lancaster Rear Gunner
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Lancaster Rear Gunner
I am trying to trace my wife,s uncle ,who was a rear gunner in a Lancaster, and was shot down over Holland. We understand that he and a colleague survived, and were captured, and became POW. The rest of the crew perished. After the war, he continued in service with RAF, and retired ? Air Commodore in 1970,s ,lived in Bexhill Sussex and died in the early 1980,s. He used to visit the war graves of his fallen comrades in Holland, and I would like to find out where this is. I only have a name Charles Broad, or possibly Charles Gaiger-Broad. I have just spoken to RAF disclosures at RAF Cranwell, who are sending forms to apply for personnel records. I understand I need the Squadron number, and then may be able to access Operational Records at Kew. Any advice or help gratefully received
Y'ur Man
Charles Gaiger-Broad CBE born 3 Oct 22 and commissioned 14 Nov 44
Can't find him in a list of POWs from Bomber Command, perhaps he was as 'evader' or was on 2 Gp flying some exotic US thing like a Boston.
Anyway, this should get you started.
O-D
Can't find him in a list of POWs from Bomber Command, perhaps he was as 'evader' or was on 2 Gp flying some exotic US thing like a Boston.
Anyway, this should get you started.
O-D
Gentleman Aviator
Got a CBE in 1971 as a Group Captain [see here: http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issu.../5963/page.pdf ] having previously got an MBE. No other apparent post-nominals.
[Edited to add:] I've got some old Air Force Lists in the office, I'll check them tomorrow. [might have known Old Duffer would be here too!
]
[Edited to add:] I've got some old Air Force Lists in the office, I'll check them tomorrow. [might have known Old Duffer would be here too!
]
Try This For Size
Headgardener,
Ring 'Disclosures' again and with the info you now have, just ask them to peek at his record and tell you the squadron he was on when he was shot down, 'cause you know this nice old duffer who is bored out of his skull and who has promised to scour Chorley et al to satisfy you urgent curiosity for info.
Last time I met C G-B was in the mess at Rhein-D circa '77 and he was holding forth about the - shall we say 'politely' - the slightly shaky start the Jaguar was having in entry to service. G-B opined that the aircraft was the first RAF type to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Years later and before Gulf War One, I was i/c the support organisation for this most wonderful of beasts and after the unpleasantness was over, I considered inviting G-B to come for lunch at HW so that I could boast that when the chips were down the old girl was a good'un. Unfortunately, by then it was too late.
Ring 'Disclosures' again and with the info you now have, just ask them to peek at his record and tell you the squadron he was on when he was shot down, 'cause you know this nice old duffer who is bored out of his skull and who has promised to scour Chorley et al to satisfy you urgent curiosity for info.
Last time I met C G-B was in the mess at Rhein-D circa '77 and he was holding forth about the - shall we say 'politely' - the slightly shaky start the Jaguar was having in entry to service. G-B opined that the aircraft was the first RAF type to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. Years later and before Gulf War One, I was i/c the support organisation for this most wonderful of beasts and after the unpleasantness was over, I considered inviting G-B to come for lunch at HW so that I could boast that when the chips were down the old girl was a good'un. Unfortunately, by then it was too late.
Just to add to the picture - There is a reference to his promotion to Air Commodore in the Times 31 Dec 1974 (promotion effective from 1/1/75), where he is listed as being in the Secretarial Branch
He also gains a mention as presiding at the dining out of AM Sir Nigel Maynard (departing commander 2nd ATAF) which occurred at 2ATAF HQ on 12 Jan 1976; the notice is in the Times for 13 Jan 1976, alongside the obit for Dame Agatha Christie
There is another reference to presiding at a dining out night/ladies night held as ACM Sir Michael Beetham and Lady Beetham departed 2ATAF; that's in the Times for 07 Jul 1977
He also gains a mention as presiding at the dining out of AM Sir Nigel Maynard (departing commander 2nd ATAF) which occurred at 2ATAF HQ on 12 Jan 1976; the notice is in the Times for 13 Jan 1976, alongside the obit for Dame Agatha Christie
There is another reference to presiding at a dining out night/ladies night held as ACM Sir Michael Beetham and Lady Beetham departed 2ATAF; that's in the Times for 07 Jul 1977
Possibly of more relevance - the LG entry in Feb '53 for his appointment to a permanent commission and transfer from GD Branch to Secretarial Branch - found here
And notification of his being granted a commission in the LG (dated 9 Feb 45) is here This gives his service number as an NCO and (like the previous one) his service number as an officer.
Also, although I can find no reference to a Charles Gaiger-Broad being involved in a loss, there is a reference to a Combat Report by Flt Sgt CG Broad of 69 Squadron in the PRO here. Out of curiosity, I've downloaded it. It doesn't say clearly whether Flt Sgt CG Broad is our man (i.e. no sign that 'Gaiger' has been treated as an initial, as seems to have happened quite often with double-barrelled surnames - whoever he was, he shot at a Ju88 which attempted to bother them, hence the combat report)
Now, this is all rather a long shot, but -
Flt Sgt Broad was a rear-gunner
He was flying aboard Wellington NC607 of 69 Sqn (a recce unit flying Wellington XIIIs and part of 2TAF) which was lost over Holland on 23 Jan 1945.
In the crash - four of his colleagues were killed, and he and F/O K G Booth (the pilot) survived to be taken prisoner. Unfortunately, it appears that neither Booth nor Broad appear on the RAF Commands list of PoWs.
The lost comardes were:
F/O John Turner
F/O George Hill
F/O John Lowrie
Sgt William Ranger
F/Os Turner, Hill and Lowrie are buried Here, and Sgt Ranger is buried here; both locations are in the Netherlands.
So there are a lot of coincidences here-
Matching name? Possibly (our biggest issue)
Matching role in aircraft? Yes (confirmed by combat report)
Shot down over Holland? Yes (confirmed by Shores, 2TAF, Vol 3, p.409 & a couple of online sources)
POW? Yes (confirmed from sources in last point)
One surviving fellow crew-member? Yes? (ditto)
Other colleagues KIA? Yes (ditto, also CWGC site confirms)
Colleagues buried in Holland? Yes (CWGC)
Snags - First: Not sure it's the same chap because of no certainty over the initials and possibly use of Gaiger as the second initial rather than part of the surname. Clearly a large, possibly fatal snag.
Second - Online sources have the two surviving crew from this crash as F/O Booth and F/Sgt Brand, not Broad. However, Shores has it as F/Sgt Broad, and since our CG Broad flew with F/O Booth (the Combat report makes this clear) on 69 Sqn, it seems likely that this might be an error in the online sources (not least since one says F/Sgt CG Brand)
Third - The Flt Sgt Broad is, of course, not commissioned. But as he was shot down and captured before Charles Gaiger Broad's commission was promulgated in the LG, was he promoted on the date given, or is that the date of his seniority?
Fourth - Not in a Lancaster but a Wellington.
Still, might this offer some lines of inquiry for you if you need to go off on a tangent Old Duffer/Teeteringhead?
And notification of his being granted a commission in the LG (dated 9 Feb 45) is here This gives his service number as an NCO and (like the previous one) his service number as an officer.
Also, although I can find no reference to a Charles Gaiger-Broad being involved in a loss, there is a reference to a Combat Report by Flt Sgt CG Broad of 69 Squadron in the PRO here. Out of curiosity, I've downloaded it. It doesn't say clearly whether Flt Sgt CG Broad is our man (i.e. no sign that 'Gaiger' has been treated as an initial, as seems to have happened quite often with double-barrelled surnames - whoever he was, he shot at a Ju88 which attempted to bother them, hence the combat report)
Now, this is all rather a long shot, but -
Flt Sgt Broad was a rear-gunner
He was flying aboard Wellington NC607 of 69 Sqn (a recce unit flying Wellington XIIIs and part of 2TAF) which was lost over Holland on 23 Jan 1945.
In the crash - four of his colleagues were killed, and he and F/O K G Booth (the pilot) survived to be taken prisoner. Unfortunately, it appears that neither Booth nor Broad appear on the RAF Commands list of PoWs.
The lost comardes were:
F/O John Turner
F/O George Hill
F/O John Lowrie
Sgt William Ranger
F/Os Turner, Hill and Lowrie are buried Here, and Sgt Ranger is buried here; both locations are in the Netherlands.
So there are a lot of coincidences here-
Matching name? Possibly (our biggest issue)
Matching role in aircraft? Yes (confirmed by combat report)
Shot down over Holland? Yes (confirmed by Shores, 2TAF, Vol 3, p.409 & a couple of online sources)
POW? Yes (confirmed from sources in last point)
One surviving fellow crew-member? Yes? (ditto)
Other colleagues KIA? Yes (ditto, also CWGC site confirms)
Colleagues buried in Holland? Yes (CWGC)
Snags - First: Not sure it's the same chap because of no certainty over the initials and possibly use of Gaiger as the second initial rather than part of the surname. Clearly a large, possibly fatal snag.
Second - Online sources have the two surviving crew from this crash as F/O Booth and F/Sgt Brand, not Broad. However, Shores has it as F/Sgt Broad, and since our CG Broad flew with F/O Booth (the Combat report makes this clear) on 69 Sqn, it seems likely that this might be an error in the online sources (not least since one says F/Sgt CG Brand)
Third - The Flt Sgt Broad is, of course, not commissioned. But as he was shot down and captured before Charles Gaiger Broad's commission was promulgated in the LG, was he promoted on the date given, or is that the date of his seniority?
Fourth - Not in a Lancaster but a Wellington.
Still, might this offer some lines of inquiry for you if you need to go off on a tangent Old Duffer/Teeteringhead?
Gentleman Aviator
A little more from my incomplete collection of Air Force Lists - and I saved those from a skip!
He only appears in one - the Autumn 1972 list as a Secretarial Branch Gp Capt, with seniority of 1 Jul 68. he was then the 18th most senior officer in that Branch.
He is listed as Gp Capt C G Broad CBE AMBIM psc.
He is not in the 1974 Retired List, nor in the Active List of Autumn 1976, which might imply a retirement in '75 or '76 - with a DOB in 1922 that's about right.
[and I note that Old-Duffer was already a sqn ldr in 1976 - impressive!!]
He only appears in one - the Autumn 1972 list as a Secretarial Branch Gp Capt, with seniority of 1 Jul 68. he was then the 18th most senior officer in that Branch.
He is listed as Gp Capt C G Broad CBE AMBIM psc.
He is not in the 1974 Retired List, nor in the Active List of Autumn 1976, which might imply a retirement in '75 or '76 - with a DOB in 1922 that's about right.
[and I note that Old-Duffer was already a sqn ldr in 1976 - impressive!!]
G-B promotion
Gaiger-Broad was promoted air cdre on 1 Jan 75 and retired on 3 Oct 77 (his 55th birthday no less).
I know he had been Director of Recruiting as Gp Capt but can't remember what his appointment was in Germany.
Yes, Teeteringhead, Old-Duffer was a sqn ldr then (think seniority was 1/1/76 iirc). Pay was £5103 per annum on appointment to acting paid rank (29/7/75) probably the pay of a sqn ldr per month now!!!??? Unfortunately and just because I was a complete incompetent, it was a long time before I troubled a further promotion board unduly!!
However, this thread is not about me - thank God - far too boring.
O-D
I know he had been Director of Recruiting as Gp Capt but can't remember what his appointment was in Germany.
Yes, Teeteringhead, Old-Duffer was a sqn ldr then (think seniority was 1/1/76 iirc). Pay was £5103 per annum on appointment to acting paid rank (29/7/75) probably the pay of a sqn ldr per month now!!!??? Unfortunately and just because I was a complete incompetent, it was a long time before I troubled a further promotion board unduly!!
However, this thread is not about me - thank God - far too boring.
O-D
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rear gunner
Thank you so much. I have been away for 24 hrs hence the delay in replying. Very interested that you met Charles G-B in Rheindalen. I married his neice in 1972, and met him around that time. A colleague of mine had an RAF medical cadetship, and also met Charles in Germany as he was the medical officer on the base in the 1970,s ! His name is Dr Tim Morris, and I see him regularly. HG
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rear gunner
Archimedes, Thank you for your research and in put. I think you have our man,for it tallies well,with my wife,s memories of her Uncle. We were told that he survived the crash, with one other crew member who had a broken leg. It was winter,which confirms date,with snow on the ground. He dragged his colleague into nearby woods. Germans nearby heard the crash, and at daylight had no problems locating them ,due to tracks in the snow. Did you say you have confirmation of POW ? Any idea where he ended up , and what happened to F/O KG Booth? I think being a Wellington rear gunner would be fine [I,m afraid I assumed a Lancaster] I think there is enough here to suggest it is what I,m looking for, and next time in the Netherlands [my daughter lives in Brussels], I,ll try and visit the War Graves as Charles used to do. We remember him ,as a very jovial character, who could organise a good party?!!. Many Thanks again for all your imputs everyone Head Gardener
HG, glad that I might have been of some help.
The sources I have found say that he was a PoW, and since one of them is Christopher Shores, I have a very high degree of confidence that this will be correct. To be absolutely certain, though, some digging about in the PRO (sorry, National Archives) would be necessary.
That said, I should've thought that a record of where he was held captive could very well be with his personal records (I have heard, third or fourth hand of one case where it wasn't). If this is our chap, I believe that there is a 69 Squadron association, and if it is still active, it may be possible to find out what happened to F/O Booth via that route.
The sources I have found say that he was a PoW, and since one of them is Christopher Shores, I have a very high degree of confidence that this will be correct. To be absolutely certain, though, some digging about in the PRO (sorry, National Archives) would be necessary.
That said, I should've thought that a record of where he was held captive could very well be with his personal records (I have heard, third or fourth hand of one case where it wasn't). If this is our chap, I believe that there is a 69 Squadron association, and if it is still active, it may be possible to find out what happened to F/O Booth via that route.
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rear gunner
I tried the 69 Squadron, but doesn,t appear to be active. I,m awaiting a copy of his Death Cert , so I can progress and get the service record. Thanks HG
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another source
You can find another source on John Lowrie DFC, Peebles
I am planning to write an article about this crash
on Maasniel, maasniel is the little village where the plane crashed
if there is photographic material is available, please let me know
regards Dominique
I am planning to write an article about this crash
on Maasniel, maasniel is the little village where the plane crashed
if there is photographic material is available, please let me know
regards Dominique
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ww2 relic hunter
hello my name is ron cox from the Netherlands Roermond
every sunday i go metal detecting i found some items of the plain that crash there in kloosterhof maybe if you come and visit holland roermond
i can show you the crash site
regards
ron cox
my email
[email protected]
every sunday i go metal detecting i found some items of the plain that crash there in kloosterhof maybe if you come and visit holland roermond
i can show you the crash site
regards
ron cox
my email
[email protected]
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rear gunner
Dear Neel / Dominique Thank you for this. Please refer to Archimedes research regarding the crash. I am researching my wife,s Uncle Charles Gaiger-Broad, who we think was Flt/Sgt CG Broad, and I,m currently waiting for his Service Record [having got his death certificate. He is listed as having flown with F/O KG Booth in combat action 3 dec 1944 ,BUT the Crew of NC 607 crashing in Jan 1945, lists a Flt/Sgt CG Brand [not Broad], so I,m not clear, though all the other evidence fits. I haven,t managed to check re POWs. If you have any more info I would be grateful Thanks HG
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rear gunner
Thank you, that would be interesting. I was coming over in early December to visit my Daughter in Brussels, and to visit Roermond ,but I have had to postpone until the Spring, when I also hope to have more evidence regarding my wife,s relative. I will be in touch Headgardener
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rear gunner
Archimedes, I,m still on the case trying to obtain Charles Gaiger-Broad,s service record. I have drawn a blank with POW,s do you have any tips. Also do you think trying to find out if Flt/Sgt CG Brand has a record etc would be possible? Any advice gratefully received Headgardener
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rear gunner
I have now spent some time in the National Archives, and have confirmed from the ORB of 69 Squadron, that Ft/Sgt CG Broad, was indeed one of the crew of the Wellington NC 607 which crashed on 23.1.1945 near Maasniel. He survived ,along with F/O KG Booth, the pilot, but his Four other Colleagues were lost. From his personal record he became a POW, but I can find no reference to where etc. Also in the ORB, there is no detail re cause of crash etc. As the survivors were eventually repatriated, would they have then given more details re the crash, and if so where would that account be held. I plan to visit the site,and War Graves in the spring, but wondered if anyone can,t help with the above queries. Many Thanks Headgardener
NC607
Hi HG, hope things are looking up now!!
Another aviation website had a query on this crash some years ago...
info on Wellington NC-607 69 Sqn. - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
and might be worth contacting the posters?
Also this on John Lowrie, a crew member, who had been a Mossie navigator...
140 Squadron
If you click on the 69 Squadron tab at the foot of the page, this additional info is available:-
Unusually, as CWGC generally inter the crew together, Sgt Ranger is at Venray. Perhaps that indicates he may have survived the crash but died of wounds if there was a hospital near Venray. Perhaps an email to CWGC may provide an explanation?
The Mark XIII was a widely used variant for maritime reconnaissance, with 69 Squadron Code given as WI (but aircraft letter not known at this moment).
Hope that helps! (The Lund Army!)
Another aviation website had a query on this crash some years ago...
info on Wellington NC-607 69 Sqn. - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum
and might be worth contacting the posters?
Also this on John Lowrie, a crew member, who had been a Mossie navigator...
140 Squadron
If you click on the 69 Squadron tab at the foot of the page, this additional info is available:-
Strategic Photographic Reconnaissance had been done by No. 140 Squadron from 1941 but it was decided that the requirements of the British Invasion Forces could not be met by just one squadron, especially in view of recent developments in night photography. A Photographic Reconnaissance Wing was formed which would work for the Headquarters of 21st Army Group, the Second Tactical Air Force and 34 Wing.
No 69 Squadron with Mk XIII Wellingtons became equipped for specialised night visual tactical reconnaissance and low-level photography and began their reconnaissance operations on the eve of D-Day. The Mk XIII had radar removed and clear Perspex nose fairing in place of turret for visual observation, flares in fuselage (dropped from 3000 ft) and open-shutter moving film camera fitted for use at 1000 ft. Aircraft flew singly and had to locate its target, sometimes as small as a crossroads or railway junction, at night.
Wellington NC607 was detailed to undertake a special night reconnaissance of the area Maasneil – Krüchten on the night of the 23rd January 1945 and F/O John Lowrie responded to the call for volunteers. The crew consisted of F/O K. G. Booth (Pilot), F/Sgt C. G. Broad, Sgt W . E. Ranger (Airgunner) and three Navigators F/O G. Hill, F/O J. W. Lowrie, and F/O J. K. Turner [one navigating, one making ground observations from the bomb-aimer’s panel and the other operating the camera].
January 1945 saw the defeat of the Ardennes counter-attack and the German forces now forced to defend their homeland. The Allies continued their advance into Germany, having to breach the Seigfried line of defensive positions and then cross the Rhine to reach the German heartland. The northern flank of Montgomery’s 21st Army Group on the 14th January began clearing the last German salient of the ‘Roer Triangle’ [Roermond, Sittard and Heinsberg], followed on 8th February by an attack through the Reichswald to outflank the Seigfried defence line in the north.
It may be speculated that the night reconnaissance on the 23rd January 1945, flying south from Maasneil (a district in the German-held Roermond) to Krütchen, covering some 200 km of snow-covered landscape, was to selectively monitor activities in this formidable line of Seigfried defence positions. The starting point at Massniel would likely have important photographic objectives in the heavily defended Roermond, a key point in the German effort to hold on to their last stronghold in Holland and delay the ultimate advance of the Allies into Germany.
A surviving member of the crew reported that having assessed their first observation run over the Maasneil area of Roermond was not as they required, they went round again at about 1000 feet despite the intensity of the ground fire and were brought down. Their action was typical of their generation: showing great valour and devotion to duty.
No 69 Squadron with Mk XIII Wellingtons became equipped for specialised night visual tactical reconnaissance and low-level photography and began their reconnaissance operations on the eve of D-Day. The Mk XIII had radar removed and clear Perspex nose fairing in place of turret for visual observation, flares in fuselage (dropped from 3000 ft) and open-shutter moving film camera fitted for use at 1000 ft. Aircraft flew singly and had to locate its target, sometimes as small as a crossroads or railway junction, at night.
Wellington NC607 was detailed to undertake a special night reconnaissance of the area Maasneil – Krüchten on the night of the 23rd January 1945 and F/O John Lowrie responded to the call for volunteers. The crew consisted of F/O K. G. Booth (Pilot), F/Sgt C. G. Broad, Sgt W . E. Ranger (Airgunner) and three Navigators F/O G. Hill, F/O J. W. Lowrie, and F/O J. K. Turner [one navigating, one making ground observations from the bomb-aimer’s panel and the other operating the camera].
January 1945 saw the defeat of the Ardennes counter-attack and the German forces now forced to defend their homeland. The Allies continued their advance into Germany, having to breach the Seigfried line of defensive positions and then cross the Rhine to reach the German heartland. The northern flank of Montgomery’s 21st Army Group on the 14th January began clearing the last German salient of the ‘Roer Triangle’ [Roermond, Sittard and Heinsberg], followed on 8th February by an attack through the Reichswald to outflank the Seigfried defence line in the north.
It may be speculated that the night reconnaissance on the 23rd January 1945, flying south from Maasneil (a district in the German-held Roermond) to Krütchen, covering some 200 km of snow-covered landscape, was to selectively monitor activities in this formidable line of Seigfried defence positions. The starting point at Massniel would likely have important photographic objectives in the heavily defended Roermond, a key point in the German effort to hold on to their last stronghold in Holland and delay the ultimate advance of the Allies into Germany.
A surviving member of the crew reported that having assessed their first observation run over the Maasneil area of Roermond was not as they required, they went round again at about 1000 feet despite the intensity of the ground fire and were brought down. Their action was typical of their generation: showing great valour and devotion to duty.
The Mark XIII was a widely used variant for maritime reconnaissance, with 69 Squadron Code given as WI (but aircraft letter not known at this moment).
Hope that helps! (The Lund Army!)