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A '109' returns to Biggin.

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A '109' returns to Biggin.

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Old 27th Jun 2010, 22:17
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A '109' returns to Biggin.

A quick post before I go through all my Biggin photos.

The stunning Aircraft Restoration Company Hispano Buchon which is now resplendent in the colours and markings that it carried some 42 years earlier whilst being flown for the Battle of Britain film. The Buchon was flown over the weekend by John Romain.

Batchy.











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Old 28th Jun 2010, 09:34
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Looks awesome but couldn't they turn that merlin upside down?
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Old 28th Jun 2010, 09:49
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A 'proper' one, same place, about 10 years ago. Spent some time there due problems with pitch-change mechanism or similar.



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Old 28th Jun 2010, 23:36
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By no stretch of the imagination is that thing a "109", and I agree its stunning, but rather in the way of a race-horse with a cow's head grafted onto it's neck!
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 00:24
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By no stretch of the imagination is that thing a "109"

Yoo mob of rivet counters are a bit much. Bloody snobs, it's a 109.
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 05:12
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Of course it's a 109. It was built by Messchershmitt [bit early for accurate spelling] for goodness sake. Just because it was supplied to the Spanish as a kit of parts is irrelevant. If I bought a kit plane in the States, and built it here, it would still be named by it's manufacturer, even if I changed the engine in it. It's a 109, built in Germany, assembled in Spain. Simples.[Fingers crossed for good weather at Legends, Gary]
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 06:10
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Just as a matter of thickness...why can't the Merlin be mounted upside down, Don't shout at me, I'm only a railwayman.
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 08:43
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I gather they were showing the footy at Biggin on Sunday.
I wonder if they got this '109' to do a flypast afterwards...

Great photos, look forward to seeing more!
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 14:46
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why can't the Merlin be mounted upside down
Because it would probably seize up after a few minutes? The oil circulation path assumes the engine is the right way up. Most (all?) piston engines are at best only rated for very limited inverted operation.

You'd probably have to take a few inches off the prop diameter too, unless you were planning on cutting the grass rather than flying.
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 15:04
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By no stretch of the imagination is that thing a "109"
So what was the German-engined spitfire, then? A Spiterschmitt? Of course not.... This Buchon is a '109!
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 19:49
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The Buchon almost completes the circle with its RR Merlin engine as the very first 109 flew with a RR Kestrel.

Batchy.
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 20:41
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Originally Posted by JEM60
Of course it's a 109. It was built by Messchershmitt [bit early for accurate spelling] for goodness sake. Just because it was supplied to the Spanish as a kit of parts is irrelevant. If I bought a kit plane in the States, and built it here, it would still be named by it's manufacturer, even if I changed the engine in it. It's a 109, built in Germany, assembled in Spain.
I'm afraid it's not a 109 and no part of any HA-1112-M1L ever originated in Germany, as the first one wasn't made until 1954 and no parts of any of them were made by Messerschmitt......
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 20:46
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I stand corrected!!!
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 20:53
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Well, whatever it is...or isn't - it looks fabulous!!
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Old 29th Jun 2010, 21:03
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Thanks GEERAM. Mis-information from a trusted friend!!! Just looked it up for myself, and it was the HA-1109-J1l which had some Messerschmitt built airframes. Cheers.
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Old 30th Jun 2010, 06:02
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So if most(all) piston engines are only able to be inverted for a short time how did Herrs Daimler und Benz manage to get their 601 to be mounted inverted in Herr Messerschmitt's little aeroplane? Presumably then the oil thingies were different.
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Old 30th Jun 2010, 11:58
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Clearly part of an engine's is design is related to which way up it is mounted.

Despite most aero engines being dry sump an upright engine will have some sort of oil scavenge system from the sump where any surplus oil will collect by gravity. Turn it upside down and that oil will fall into the bores and pistons when operating and collect there when not running which has to be addressed and minimised in the design as neither pistons nor spark plugs like operating whilst filled with oil. An inverted engine must also scavenge oil from below the valve gear wheras an upright one will drain the rockers by gravity. The inverted time limitation on an engine will partly be due to these oil issues, but may also include hydraulic and fuel considerations (fluid pickup from tanks, cavitation of pumps, flow from tank breathers etc). Highly likely the Benz engine had an inverted limitation too. Perhaps someone here knows?
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Old 30th Jun 2010, 12:13
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Originally Posted by SomeGuyOnTheDeck
Because it would probably seize up after a few minutes? The oil circulation path assumes the engine is the right way up. Most (all?) piston engines are at best only rated for very limited inverted operation.
I wonder how a radial manages then. Half of it is always inverted no matter what your bank angle
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Old 30th Jun 2010, 12:35
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Because it is designed to work that way.

No doubt if you wanted your radial to work horizontally (say in a helicopter) you'd have to modify it extensively inside.
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Old 30th Jun 2010, 12:44
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So if most(all) piston engines are only able to be inverted for a short time how did Herrs Daimler und Benz manage to get their 601 to be mounted inverted in Herr Messerschmitt's little aeroplane? Presumably then the oil thingies were different.
The DB 601 was designed from the outset as an inverted V12.

As for radial engines, perhaps they likewise were designed to operate at a given orientation, though given the reluctance of some to start, I wonder whether they ever really cracked the problem.
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