Tracing back a WWII RAF pilot
Aw shucks, didn't do anything special, just a bit of Googling, but nice to be appreciated 
One thing I'm a little puzzled over is the fact that the crash site was near Bochum Woods (Stadtvald?) yet it says he is on the Runnymede Memorial. I have asked elsewhere and whilst there appear to be no local records as to any burial, it might be that his body was repatriated to Greece after the War by his family or the Greek government.
It may be worth contacting the CWGC as to whether they have any info on why a Runnymede commemoration. So close to the end of the War, I would have expected a MACR or similar report.
One thing I'm a little puzzled over is the fact that the crash site was near Bochum Woods (Stadtvald?) yet it says he is on the Runnymede Memorial. I have asked elsewhere and whilst there appear to be no local records as to any burial, it might be that his body was repatriated to Greece after the War by his family or the Greek government.
It may be worth contacting the CWGC as to whether they have any info on why a Runnymede commemoration. So close to the end of the War, I would have expected a MACR or similar report.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sevenoaks, Kent
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fl Lt. Dennis Noble Britton, DFC, DFM - No. 83 Squadron Pathfinder Pilot
On my elderly father's behalf (now 88) I have recently obtained his WW2 service records from the RAF. Unfortunately, they do not contain any information about his awards other than that he received them.
My father is now frail and his memory is very poor. The London Gazette only mentions that he was awarded the DFM but no citation (Sept. 1943). The London Gazette does not have a mention for his DFC (awarded Jan. 1944?).
I know he went to Buck House and received his medals from George VI (12 Dec 1944) but I don't know what he did to receive the medals! If anyone has any information, I would be extremely grateful for your help.
Regards
JS
My father is now frail and his memory is very poor. The London Gazette only mentions that he was awarded the DFM but no citation (Sept. 1943). The London Gazette does not have a mention for his DFC (awarded Jan. 1944?).
I know he went to Buck House and received his medals from George VI (12 Dec 1944) but I don't know what he did to receive the medals! If anyone has any information, I would be extremely grateful for your help.
Regards
JS
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One thing I'm a little puzzled over is the fact that the crash site was near Bochum Woods (Stadtvald?) yet it says he is on the Runnymede Memorial. I have asked elsewhere and whilst there appear to be no local records as to any burial, it might be that his body was repatriated to Greece after the War by his family or the Greek government
As an example, my great uncle's Halifax crash landed and exploded just after take off from RAF Melbourne (10 Sqn). Of the 7 crew, 1 survived, 4 are buried in various cemeteries and 2 are on the Runnymede Memorial.
You know by the people contributing here that where possible they will move heaven and earth to help.
I have no doubt that this will happen here.
In his time remaining, please do your utmost to record your fathers memories, no matter how faltering they seem to be. If necessary, read him some of the Gaining a Pilots Brevet thread to see if that stimulates him - it does us!!
Does he still remember who his regular crew was? Any other details? The more you feed us the more we might be able to provide, each memory reinforcing the next.
87 Nobles died in WW2, are there any other family members linked to him?
I have no doubt that this will happen here.
In his time remaining, please do your utmost to record your fathers memories, no matter how faltering they seem to be. If necessary, read him some of the Gaining a Pilots Brevet thread to see if that stimulates him - it does us!!
Does he still remember who his regular crew was? Any other details? The more you feed us the more we might be able to provide, each memory reinforcing the next.
87 Nobles died in WW2, are there any other family members linked to him?
Nov 11. I believe the rules were 7lb, hopefully to include the spinal cord and skull, but it was geared to the weight of a new born. It was intended that enough to identify one human be included, such as a skull, but obviously whether that applied in Occupied Territories or not I can't clarify.
As you say, it is not necessary to go into the finer points, but where a single seat aircraft was involved, whatever could be recovered was considered sufficient for a burial.
My question was whether what had been recovered from the Tempest crash had subsequently been taken back to Greece. I would have expected there to be enough for a burial. For him to be on Runnymede indicates either nothing substantial was recovered or that his remains are "elsewhere", hopefully in Greece with his family.
As you say, it is not necessary to go into the finer points, but where a single seat aircraft was involved, whatever could be recovered was considered sufficient for a burial.
My question was whether what had been recovered from the Tempest crash had subsequently been taken back to Greece. I would have expected there to be enough for a burial. For him to be on Runnymede indicates either nothing substantial was recovered or that his remains are "elsewhere", hopefully in Greece with his family.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Wiltshire
Age: 59
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Icare - 7lbs is still not very much. I doubt very much if the remains were taken to Greece that he would still be on the Runnymede Memorial. If they were in Greece then surely that would be his official burial location. Unfortunatly I think it is more likely that not enough remains were found or his burial location was subsequently lost.
JS - Your father's DFC is mentioned as being awarded on 21 Jan 1944 -
Supplement to London Gazette 21 Jan 44
You'll see that there are some citations given, but not for your father. It may be that this points to the award being at the end of a tour, and recognising consistent gallantry on his part throughout it, rather than for one specific event. I'll have a look at the record of DFCs awarded when I'm in work and see if there's a citation - unless someone with the book has it and can beat me to it.
Supplement to London Gazette 21 Jan 44
You'll see that there are some citations given, but not for your father. It may be that this points to the award being at the end of a tour, and recognising consistent gallantry on his part throughout it, rather than for one specific event. I'll have a look at the record of DFCs awarded when I'm in work and see if there's a citation - unless someone with the book has it and can beat me to it.
Indeed it does - there is a reference to a combat report by a P/O Britton from 83 Sqn dated 20 Oct 43 at Air 50/197 (downloadable for £3.50 in pdf format), which could be our chap - the dates would seem to fit.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sevenoaks, Kent
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You chaps are great - thanks a lot for your help.
Hadn't previously found the mention of my dad's DFC in the Gazette and have now downloaded the combat report you mentioned. This must be the incident which got him the DFC. Whilst having a rummage through the attic, found an old newspaper snippet about my dad in his old mementoes box -
"Pilot Officer Dennis Britton , DFM, RAFVR... has just been awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross... since being awarded the DFM in September 1943, he has taken part in numerous attacks... one night in October 1943, when returning from an attack on Leipzig and while still over enemy territory, his aircraft was attacked by hostile fighters and severely damaged.... he regained control and flew his crippled aircraft back to this country... landing at a strange airfield without further damage being sustained."
Have yet to discover why he received the DFM; if there is no citation, presumably that indicates that it is not an "immediate" award for one act of bravery/courage?
This is a great website. Thanks again for your help!
Regards
JS
Hadn't previously found the mention of my dad's DFC in the Gazette and have now downloaded the combat report you mentioned. This must be the incident which got him the DFC. Whilst having a rummage through the attic, found an old newspaper snippet about my dad in his old mementoes box -
"Pilot Officer Dennis Britton , DFM, RAFVR... has just been awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross... since being awarded the DFM in September 1943, he has taken part in numerous attacks... one night in October 1943, when returning from an attack on Leipzig and while still over enemy territory, his aircraft was attacked by hostile fighters and severely damaged.... he regained control and flew his crippled aircraft back to this country... landing at a strange airfield without further damage being sustained."
Have yet to discover why he received the DFM; if there is no citation, presumably that indicates that it is not an "immediate" award for one act of bravery/courage?
This is a great website. Thanks again for your help!
Regards
JS
There are six references to this pilot in the book "The Typhoon and Tempest Story" by Chris Thomas and Christopher Shores. One refers to him joining 3 sqd. after serving with 19 sqd[Mustangs] . having already been credited with five and two shared victories with that unit.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From Tavender.
Britton, Dennis Noble. 1098819, No 83 Sqn.
LG Date 10/9/43 Sorties 25, Flying Hours 150.50
Flight Sergeant Britton has carried out 25 operational flights including 9 with the Pathfinder Force. Nearly all these operations have been against German targets including Berlin 3 Essen 3 Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Cologne 2, and Stettin. He is a very reliable pilot and since volunteering for PFF work he has shown a great promise as captain of a target marking crew. He is possessed of high morale and great determination and, although of a quiet disposition, he possesses a fine offensive spirit. He is recommended for the award of the DFM
This was dated 18 July 1943.
His Station Commander said:
I concur with the recommendation of the squadron commander. Flight Sergeant Britton has performed many operational flights which have been skillfully executed.
Hope that helps,
Jim.
Britton, Dennis Noble. 1098819, No 83 Sqn.
LG Date 10/9/43 Sorties 25, Flying Hours 150.50
Flight Sergeant Britton has carried out 25 operational flights including 9 with the Pathfinder Force. Nearly all these operations have been against German targets including Berlin 3 Essen 3 Dusseldorf, Duisburg, Cologne 2, and Stettin. He is a very reliable pilot and since volunteering for PFF work he has shown a great promise as captain of a target marking crew. He is possessed of high morale and great determination and, although of a quiet disposition, he possesses a fine offensive spirit. He is recommended for the award of the DFM
This was dated 18 July 1943.
His Station Commander said:
I concur with the recommendation of the squadron commander. Flight Sergeant Britton has performed many operational flights which have been skillfully executed.
Hope that helps,
Jim.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sevenoaks, Kent
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dennis Britton, DFC, DFM, 83rd Squadron
Jimbo27 - may I please impose on you again... is there any citation for my father's DFC in Tavender - (awarded 21 January 1944)?
Kind regards JS
Kind regards JS
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jimbo,
I've not found a DFC citation for my father, either. P/O R J H Robertson RAFVR (ser # 123304) 72 Sqn, promulgated in the Supplement to the London Gazette of 26 February 1943.
I posted his recollections on the "Gaining an RAF brevet . . " in the Mil thread last year. If you could find it, I'd be very appreciative. Thanks.
I've not found a DFC citation for my father, either. P/O R J H Robertson RAFVR (ser # 123304) 72 Sqn, promulgated in the Supplement to the London Gazette of 26 February 1943.
I posted his recollections on the "Gaining an RAF brevet . . " in the Mil thread last year. If you could find it, I'd be very appreciative. Thanks.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P/O Britton
Hi, not an imposition, I enjoy doing the research.
The Tavender book only covers the DFM.
There is a very similar work by Carter that covers the DFC. The significant difference is that Tavender only covers 39-45 but includes the recommendations where they have been found in Air 2.
Carter goes all the way from 1918 to 1995, but unfortunately only has the detail that is in the London Gazette. Therefore the book only records what you already know.
What I would say to you is that I would strongly urge you to visit the National Archive in Kew, or pay a researcher on your behalf. For a start you will be able to probably find the recommendation to the DFC. As I said above in the thread the recommendation is often in greater detail than the published citation, for reasons of space and security.
The other thing you will be able to do is look up each operation he undertook, and read the details, where to , bomb load, who was in the crew, incidents, etc. As he was awarded a DFC, probably at the end of a tour, and he was in a PFF Sqn, you are looking at about 45 to 50 operations.
Because you already have his list of postings you will be able to trace his career back, so for example he will be posted in to the sqn from somewhere else, the Pathfinder Training Unit perhaps or another squadron, or an HCU. Prior to that will be all of his training, and you may be able to pick up details of that.
The one thing I have found is the detail of his commission (29 July 1943), link below to pdf from the LG website.
Viewing Page 4409 of Issue 36196
Good luck, please ask if you have other queries.
Jim
The Tavender book only covers the DFM.
There is a very similar work by Carter that covers the DFC. The significant difference is that Tavender only covers 39-45 but includes the recommendations where they have been found in Air 2.
Carter goes all the way from 1918 to 1995, but unfortunately only has the detail that is in the London Gazette. Therefore the book only records what you already know.
What I would say to you is that I would strongly urge you to visit the National Archive in Kew, or pay a researcher on your behalf. For a start you will be able to probably find the recommendation to the DFC. As I said above in the thread the recommendation is often in greater detail than the published citation, for reasons of space and security.
The other thing you will be able to do is look up each operation he undertook, and read the details, where to , bomb load, who was in the crew, incidents, etc. As he was awarded a DFC, probably at the end of a tour, and he was in a PFF Sqn, you are looking at about 45 to 50 operations.
Because you already have his list of postings you will be able to trace his career back, so for example he will be posted in to the sqn from somewhere else, the Pathfinder Training Unit perhaps or another squadron, or an HCU. Prior to that will be all of his training, and you may be able to pick up details of that.
The one thing I have found is the detail of his commission (29 July 1943), link below to pdf from the LG website.
Viewing Page 4409 of Issue 36196
Good luck, please ask if you have other queries.
Jim
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Peterborough
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P/O Robertson
Most of what I said above also applies to your father.
Just in case you don't already have it, I have also found his commission, 19 May 1942
Viewing Page 3046 of Issue 35628
plus other mentions
Viewing Page 2366 of Issue 36030
Viewing Page 4085 of Issue 36170
Hope that helps.
Jim
Just in case you don't already have it, I have also found his commission, 19 May 1942
Viewing Page 3046 of Issue 35628
plus other mentions
Viewing Page 2366 of Issue 36030
Viewing Page 4085 of Issue 36170
Hope that helps.
Jim