Avro XIX
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Avro XIX
Can anybody tell me why the Avro XIX was never very successful as a civil airliner?
I'm old enough to remember BEA (as was) using Dragon Rapides in the sixties for Scottish services - they seemed very old-fashioned even then.
There must have been many Anson/XIX airframes around in the late 40s and early 50s - a fairly modern, monoplane design. I would have thought post-war airlines would have snapped them up.
I'm curious about why it was never a popular choice for similar routes to the ones served by Dragon Rapides etc.
Any thoughts?
I'm old enough to remember BEA (as was) using Dragon Rapides in the sixties for Scottish services - they seemed very old-fashioned even then.
There must have been many Anson/XIX airframes around in the late 40s and early 50s - a fairly modern, monoplane design. I would have thought post-war airlines would have snapped them up.
I'm curious about why it was never a popular choice for similar routes to the ones served by Dragon Rapides etc.
Any thoughts?
A lot of the Northern Scottish airfields were merely sheep sheared fields or beaches at that time. The pilots were used to Dragon Rapids and they had the STOL performance; witness they were used for the Lands End-Scillies route. Another, far more important, is that two Cheetahs would used a lot more fuel than two Gipsy Majors. Someone would hae ta dig deep in his pooch.
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Arguably, when the Nineteen began production in '46, it was just too late and with too few seats to compete with the many newer types entering production elswhere.
As you see, that's a lot of aeroplane to cart 9 Pax 350 miles. Tough as old boots, though.
As you see, that's a lot of aeroplane to cart 9 Pax 350 miles. Tough as old boots, though.
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 18th May 2010 at 22:33.
Another, far more important, is that two Cheetahs would used a lot more fuel than two Gipsy Majors.
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1943 Brabazon Committee on Post-War Civil Aircraft assumed a "Feeder" civil air transport sector would start on scrap-price Beech C-45 Expeditor/Cessna UC-78 Bobcat/Crane, D.H.89A Dominie/Rapide & Anson, and a "Continental" medium-haul freight/pax. sector would start on C-46 Commando/C-47 Dakota. It defined Types V and II as their replacements. V was split as VB (D.H.104 Dove) to replace Dominie, VA (Miles, to be HPR) M.60 Marathon vice the others. As "Interim", Anson was adapted as Avro XIX: in 1947 14 moved from Railway Air Services to new BEAC. Type II "Interim" was VC1 Viking, imposed on BEAC pending IIA, AS.57 Ambassador, and turbine IIB, VC2 Viceroy or IIC A.W.55 Apollo.
BEAC dumped "Feeder" onto minnows under "Associate Agreements", but kept heavily-subsidised "Highlands and Islands" and put Rapides there, for fed's reasons. What they wanted, and got, was neither Marathons, nor Avro XIX, but more Dakotas, whose magnificence blurred segmentation, "Feeder" v. "Continental", and stifled sales of Marathon, Ambassador and Viking (phased out of BEAC, 1955; their last "Pionair" Freighter was withdrawn 19/5/62).
Most survivors from 626 Rapides/Dominies (and 102 new-built 1945/47) had a User before the scrappie. So did many from c.10,950 Ansons (built to 1952). The wonder is not that "only" 46 Avro XIX were sold, but that any were, against survivors of 10,349 US-built DC-3 variants, and Expeditors, and Bobcats and...
BEAC dumped "Feeder" onto minnows under "Associate Agreements", but kept heavily-subsidised "Highlands and Islands" and put Rapides there, for fed's reasons. What they wanted, and got, was neither Marathons, nor Avro XIX, but more Dakotas, whose magnificence blurred segmentation, "Feeder" v. "Continental", and stifled sales of Marathon, Ambassador and Viking (phased out of BEAC, 1955; their last "Pionair" Freighter was withdrawn 19/5/62).
Most survivors from 626 Rapides/Dominies (and 102 new-built 1945/47) had a User before the scrappie. So did many from c.10,950 Ansons (built to 1952). The wonder is not that "only" 46 Avro XIX were sold, but that any were, against survivors of 10,349 US-built DC-3 variants, and Expeditors, and Bobcats and...
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Appreciate the responses - as I suspected, economics seem to be the main reason (as well as all those surplus c-47s).
The interior photo is interesting, not much room at all although I don't suppose there was much room in a Dragon Rapide either.
Pretty little aircraft though.
The interior photo is interesting, not much room at all although I don't suppose there was much room in a Dragon Rapide either.
Pretty little aircraft though.
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That's quite a high interior though - looking at that photo. Probably a bit more headroom than many a modern twin prop I'd guess. Anyway, as an engineer I was looking at those seats and wondering if I'd allow them in any modern plane (I work with interiors on Airbus...) because those "chairs" look rather 'interesting' from a safety point of view.
My my, haven't standards changed over the years?
But still a rugged looking plane that could find use in freight dogging in Papua NG even now. Whatever happened to British aircraft design...?
My my, haven't standards changed over the years?
But still a rugged looking plane that could find use in freight dogging in Papua NG even now. Whatever happened to British aircraft design...?
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Looking back through my old papyrus parchment log, written with quill pen, I see several "Avro 652 Anson 19" entries. Have I just used a posh name for Avro XIX, or was it a variant please?
I like Ansons - my first flight was in one.
I like Ansons - my first flight was in one.
First flight, aged 13, in an Anson, think it might have been serialed TX219. Biggest worry, having wanted to fly in the RAF since the age of 5, was that I might not like it. I did.
I accumulated over a thousand enjoyable/uncomfortable/hot/freezing/soaking wet * hours on the cloth bomber, MKs 12, 19 and 21 and still have a soft spot for one of Avros finest products. Space was limited in the seven seat cabin and the main spar was intrusive, but passengerwise it was quiet(ish), comfortable and relatively vibration free. (The rumble of two Armstrong Siddeley Cheetahs was very sophorific) It was also had a reasonable cruising speed of 120-130 knots, only 10 knots slower than the more modern Pembroke.
* Depending on time of year, cruising altitude and weather!
* Depending on time of year, cruising altitude and weather!
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Wander00.. We are of similar vintage. My FF was in VM318 at Colerne in August, 1958. I haven't seen TX219 but saw 214 and 217 in the early 60s. Oh happy days...
PPRuNe is indeed a small world. My FF was also an Anson at Colerne as a 13 year old on my first ATC camp, August 1956. Also my first cigarette (Woodbines from the NAAFI). I gave up smoking the same year, reckoning money spent on tobacco wasn't then available for aviation related activities....
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Offhand, I don't see the XIX as much of an advance over the Lockheed 10 Electra of a dozen years earlier.
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That's 'cos it wasn't much of an advance. L.10 first flight 23 Feb.34, Avro 652, 7 Jan.1935, wing derived from Fokker F.VIIB, licenced 1928.
The reason UK continued to build 652 variants to 1952 was that March,1942 Lend/Lease, an Act to Promote the Defense of US, barred Users from commercially copying War Effort gifts. So, bar a few overlooked in RN, UK returned its C-45s and built new Anson/XIXs for RAF and anyone who was unaware that surplus C-45s (and L.18/C-60 derivatives of L.10) abounded, to shelter Brabazon Type V (Feeder).
Similarly to protect Type III (Empire, to be Tudor and Hermes), 22 RAF C-54D were returned in 1946, to great RAF chagrin (they were replaced by Lancastrians!) (It is one of UK aero-apologists' enduring, we wuz robbed myths that US had veto rights over UK transports: what was agreed was that priorities in production would be bombers/UK, transports/US, not to inhibit new US bombers, nor Cabinet Committee on Reconstruction Problems from funding airliners. UK War Cabinet Minutes W.M.(43). 35,25/2/43,SecState for Air approving spend on Brabazon Committee Types: “We will not accept a solution (to Civil Air Transport) on the basis that we won’t build any a/c and we want authority (to) plan some production”).
US Govt. took the view, quietly, that DC-3 needed no such Protection, disposed of them as is, where is, allowed RAF to fly them on (to this day in BBMF) and chose to consider Brabazon Type II, Ambassador &tc. as not conflicting with Congress' intent.
The reason UK continued to build 652 variants to 1952 was that March,1942 Lend/Lease, an Act to Promote the Defense of US, barred Users from commercially copying War Effort gifts. So, bar a few overlooked in RN, UK returned its C-45s and built new Anson/XIXs for RAF and anyone who was unaware that surplus C-45s (and L.18/C-60 derivatives of L.10) abounded, to shelter Brabazon Type V (Feeder).
Similarly to protect Type III (Empire, to be Tudor and Hermes), 22 RAF C-54D were returned in 1946, to great RAF chagrin (they were replaced by Lancastrians!) (It is one of UK aero-apologists' enduring, we wuz robbed myths that US had veto rights over UK transports: what was agreed was that priorities in production would be bombers/UK, transports/US, not to inhibit new US bombers, nor Cabinet Committee on Reconstruction Problems from funding airliners. UK War Cabinet Minutes W.M.(43). 35,25/2/43,SecState for Air approving spend on Brabazon Committee Types: “We will not accept a solution (to Civil Air Transport) on the basis that we won’t build any a/c and we want authority (to) plan some production”).
US Govt. took the view, quietly, that DC-3 needed no such Protection, disposed of them as is, where is, allowed RAF to fly them on (to this day in BBMF) and chose to consider Brabazon Type II, Ambassador &tc. as not conflicting with Congress' intent.
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Avro X1X
Ah the memories of the Ansons
At Amman 54-55 spent a lot of time working on two station Ansons, TX196 and PH 843.in the company of Chief Tech Tim Brown , who was never more happier when he was up to his elbows in Cheetah oil during Pot,plug, or engine changes. I must admit it was a nice change from Vamp and Venom engine changes .
Went on one or two trips to Aqaba and found they were good for rounding up sheep and goats.
Strange ,but just today I bought a book in a charity shop, RAF Today by Bruce Robertson for the large sum of one pound.
Flicking through the pages, there, was a photo of Anson VL349 of Air support Command on the last service flight 28th June 1968.
Ah, the smell of cellulose paint is still with me
Merv
At Amman 54-55 spent a lot of time working on two station Ansons, TX196 and PH 843.in the company of Chief Tech Tim Brown , who was never more happier when he was up to his elbows in Cheetah oil during Pot,plug, or engine changes. I must admit it was a nice change from Vamp and Venom engine changes .
Went on one or two trips to Aqaba and found they were good for rounding up sheep and goats.
Strange ,but just today I bought a book in a charity shop, RAF Today by Bruce Robertson for the large sum of one pound.
Flicking through the pages, there, was a photo of Anson VL349 of Air support Command on the last service flight 28th June 1968.
Ah, the smell of cellulose paint is still with me
Merv
I remember my first flight was in an Anson.
!957 Cosford, Air experience flight.
Memories of whicker seats if I am correct.
I absolutely loved it, short flip from Cosford , around the Wrekin and return.
A close friend of mine not so happy, I didn't believe that the face could show a shade of green. His certainly did and vowing not to go flying ever again.
For me it was the start of a lifelong yearning to be taken aloft at every opportunity.
OPF
!957 Cosford, Air experience flight.
Memories of whicker seats if I am correct.
I absolutely loved it, short flip from Cosford , around the Wrekin and return.
A close friend of mine not so happy, I didn't believe that the face could show a shade of green. His certainly did and vowing not to go flying ever again.
For me it was the start of a lifelong yearning to be taken aloft at every opportunity.
OPF
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Anson TX196
Hello Merv.
I had the pleasure of crewing this venerable old bird from Amman, back to Ashton Down at the end of her service in the Middle east and am delighted to talk to somebody that has known her. I have a couple of questions:
"Where can I find out details of her service post Amman?
What Mark was she? That info is not in my logbook.
Is VL349 the same designator as TX196?
I ask the last question because I am having a model made by Nice Airplanes and they need the detail that would be on the fuslage.
I would really appreciate it if you could give me this unformation
ps Do you recall a f/Sgt Buckles at Amman?
I had the pleasure of crewing this venerable old bird from Amman, back to Ashton Down at the end of her service in the Middle east and am delighted to talk to somebody that has known her. I have a couple of questions:
"Where can I find out details of her service post Amman?
What Mark was she? That info is not in my logbook.
Is VL349 the same designator as TX196?
I ask the last question because I am having a model made by Nice Airplanes and they need the detail that would be on the fuslage.
I would really appreciate it if you could give me this unformation
ps Do you recall a f/Sgt Buckles at Amman?
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Thanks to Air Britain RAF Aircraft SA100-VZ999, but no dates:
Benson SF
Wyton SF
1439 Flt (will have to work out where!)
Cottesmore SF
Wyton SF
TTCCF
WCS
57 Sqdn
55 Sqdn
Wittering SF
Ciarain.
1439 Flt re-formed at Hemswell 8th May 1957, disbanded at Hemswell 20th November 1957.
TTCCF moved to Wyton 6th November 1945, disbanded at Wyton 1st April 1964.
57 and 55 Sqdns re-formed at Honington with Victor B.1 on 1st January 1959 and 1st September 1960.
Benson SF
Wyton SF
1439 Flt (will have to work out where!)
Cottesmore SF
Wyton SF
TTCCF
WCS
57 Sqdn
55 Sqdn
Wittering SF
Ciarain.
1439 Flt re-formed at Hemswell 8th May 1957, disbanded at Hemswell 20th November 1957.
TTCCF moved to Wyton 6th November 1945, disbanded at Wyton 1st April 1964.
57 and 55 Sqdns re-formed at Honington with Victor B.1 on 1st January 1959 and 1st September 1960.
Last edited by Kieron Kirk; 6th Jun 2010 at 18:09.
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"stifled sales of Marathon"!
I hardly think so: from what I've read about that aircraft, it was a complete disaster. Eg, no toilet or heater, so Derby Airways used to ply passengers with lots of hot tea to keep them warm, but then there was nowhere for them to get rid of it so to speak!
I hardly think so: from what I've read about that aircraft, it was a complete disaster. Eg, no toilet or heater, so Derby Airways used to ply passengers with lots of hot tea to keep them warm, but then there was nowhere for them to get rid of it so to speak!