P51
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P51
I wonder if some clever chappy could win me a beer please. The local bar boor, who I am beginning to suspect is a Billy Bull****ter to boot...was waxing lyrical about planes as is his want....
he went on about Griffon engined P51's....before I remembered to keep my gob shut I said I thought they were Merlin engined and that Shacks had Griffons fitted....(how many times when growing up did Dad recite "the Mighty roar of the Griffons Four"?)
an arguement ensued...he also claimed a P51 in Korea is the only propeller engined plane to shoot down a jet..
have checked Wiki (that font of all things inaccurate) and a few other links and can see nothing about either the shooting down or Griffon powered P51's....
before I go and tell him he is full of ****e I thought maybe someone on here could say if he is correct..
than you for your patience...
he went on about Griffon engined P51's....before I remembered to keep my gob shut I said I thought they were Merlin engined and that Shacks had Griffons fitted....(how many times when growing up did Dad recite "the Mighty roar of the Griffons Four"?)
an arguement ensued...he also claimed a P51 in Korea is the only propeller engined plane to shoot down a jet..
have checked Wiki (that font of all things inaccurate) and a few other links and can see nothing about either the shooting down or Griffon powered P51's....
before I go and tell him he is full of ****e I thought maybe someone on here could say if he is correct..
than you for your patience...
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ROLLS-ROYCE GRIFFON
A concept I believe...............
A concept I believe...............
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pretty sure a 262 was shot down in WW2. Can't remember details. P51 allison and merlins afik.
from Griffon History
from Griffon History
Paper Airplanes
If a little is good then more must be better right? This was the philosophy behind a scheme to install the Griffon into the P-51. Unlike the Griffon conversion of the Spitfire, the Griffon P-51 entailed a totally new design incorporating only the flying surfaces. An all-new fuselage featuring a mid engined layout with the pilot sitting in front of the engine driving a six bladed Rotol contra rotating prop would have made it new aircraft. Drive to the propeller was via transfer gears mounted at the front of the engine. The drive shaft ran under the cockpit terminating at the propeller reduction gears mounted in the nose. A torque tube mounted on the propeller reduction gear case at the front and on the engine at the rear enclosed the drive shaft thus alleviating the nose structure of the aircraft from the considerable torque reaction loads, which were instead transmitted back to the engine. Splines on both ends of the torque tube allowed for longitudinal float. Three early Allison powered Mustang I's, equivalent to Mustang A's were obtained to supply parts for the project. Substantial work had been completed when the project was cancelled for the usual reasons during this time frame, gas turbine development
If a little is good then more must be better right? This was the philosophy behind a scheme to install the Griffon into the P-51. Unlike the Griffon conversion of the Spitfire, the Griffon P-51 entailed a totally new design incorporating only the flying surfaces. An all-new fuselage featuring a mid engined layout with the pilot sitting in front of the engine driving a six bladed Rotol contra rotating prop would have made it new aircraft. Drive to the propeller was via transfer gears mounted at the front of the engine. The drive shaft ran under the cockpit terminating at the propeller reduction gears mounted in the nose. A torque tube mounted on the propeller reduction gear case at the front and on the engine at the rear enclosed the drive shaft thus alleviating the nose structure of the aircraft from the considerable torque reaction loads, which were instead transmitted back to the engine. Splines on both ends of the torque tube allowed for longitudinal float. Three early Allison powered Mustang I's, equivalent to Mustang A's were obtained to supply parts for the project. Substantial work had been completed when the project was cancelled for the usual reasons during this time frame, gas turbine development
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an arguement ensued...he also claimed a P51 in Korea is the only propeller engined plane to shoot down a jet..
The Sea Fury in the Korean War
On 8 August 1952, FAA pilot Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael Royal Navy downed a MiG-15 jet fighter in air-to-air combat, making the Sea Fury one of the few prop-driven fighter aircraft to shoot down a jet-powered fighter.
Indeed, some sources claim a second MiG was downed, although most accounts do not mention this; either way, this is often cited as the only successful engagement by a British pilot in a British aircraft in the entire Korean War.
The engagement occurred when his mixed flight of Sea Furies and Fireflies was engaged by eight MiG-15s, during which one Firefly was badly damaged while the Sea Furies were able to escape unharmed. A similar encounter the next day led to the Sea Fury fighters using their superior manoeuvrability to escape another MiG-15 "bounce" although one Sea Fury had to limp home to Ocean. To enable the Sea Furies to be recognised by friendly forces the aircraft were painted with markings similar to those used during D-Day.
On 8 August 1952, FAA pilot Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael Royal Navy downed a MiG-15 jet fighter in air-to-air combat, making the Sea Fury one of the few prop-driven fighter aircraft to shoot down a jet-powered fighter.
Indeed, some sources claim a second MiG was downed, although most accounts do not mention this; either way, this is often cited as the only successful engagement by a British pilot in a British aircraft in the entire Korean War.
The engagement occurred when his mixed flight of Sea Furies and Fireflies was engaged by eight MiG-15s, during which one Firefly was badly damaged while the Sea Furies were able to escape unharmed. A similar encounter the next day led to the Sea Fury fighters using their superior manoeuvrability to escape another MiG-15 "bounce" although one Sea Fury had to limp home to Ocean. To enable the Sea Furies to be recognised by friendly forces the aircraft were painted with markings similar to those used during D-Day.
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IIRC a small number of Unlimited Mustang racers had ex-Shack Griffons in the 70s/80s, but certainly no factory machines.
As far as Korea goes, there are no records of F-51s shooting down jets. Mustangs scored several kills early on against Yak-3/9s and Il-10s - maybe a Po-2 or two, but the only piston-engined fighters to score against MiGs were the Sea Fury (one definite, a second maybe, as mentioned above) and the Corsair, which got one.
As far as Korea goes, there are no records of F-51s shooting down jets. Mustangs scored several kills early on against Yak-3/9s and Il-10s - maybe a Po-2 or two, but the only piston-engined fighters to score against MiGs were the Sea Fury (one definite, a second maybe, as mentioned above) and the Corsair, which got one.
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I have seen reference to a pair of P-51s shooting down the first MiG-15 downed over South Korea.
P-51 Mustang - Conservapedia
I'm sure I remember reading something of this in Orbis' 'Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft' in the early 80s.
Under the circumstances, Crack On!!
However, it's not unreasonable for the non-pedant fat-bloke-down-the-pub-type-chap to confuse the Merlin and Griffon.
P-51 Mustang - Conservapedia
I'm sure I remember reading something of this in Orbis' 'Illustrated Encyclopedia of Aircraft' in the early 80s.
.... tell him he is full of ****e ....
However, it's not unreasonable for the non-pedant fat-bloke-down-the-pub-type-chap to confuse the Merlin and Griffon.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 23rd Jun 2009 at 12:11.
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P-51 started with the Allison V-1710 engine, piss poor performance above 15000ft, faster than a VB Spitfire up to this level, slightly better until 25000ft after which the Spit was way ahead (as it was in terms of manoeuvrability at all altitudes).
April 30 1942 Ronald Harker (RR test pilot) took a 30 min flight in a Mustang, noted the power fall off at altitude and suggested the Merlin 61 with 2 stage supercharger would be ideal. First flies as such on Oct 13 1942 with exceptional results, 70mph faster, climb rate 50% greater than a P51A. US conversion and refinement flew 30 Nov 1942, roughly the same speed but even greater rate of climb (double P-51A).
First Merlin Mustangs saw action Oct 1943, first "bubble" canopy 17 November 1943 which ultimately became the P-51D after the teething problems were generally sorted.
No production Griffon engined P-51 built, considered but discarded as it was too large and the surprisingly good results of the two stage supercharger meant the Merlin 61 was a much better option.
as for piston-jet combat standard tactics for dealing with 262s was to bounce them as they came in to land due to spool up time of early jets. Significant numbers were shot down in this manner, the Luftwaffe response was to have 190s providing cover as the 262s returned. Various Allied aircraft undertook these ops.
Hope this helps
April 30 1942 Ronald Harker (RR test pilot) took a 30 min flight in a Mustang, noted the power fall off at altitude and suggested the Merlin 61 with 2 stage supercharger would be ideal. First flies as such on Oct 13 1942 with exceptional results, 70mph faster, climb rate 50% greater than a P51A. US conversion and refinement flew 30 Nov 1942, roughly the same speed but even greater rate of climb (double P-51A).
First Merlin Mustangs saw action Oct 1943, first "bubble" canopy 17 November 1943 which ultimately became the P-51D after the teething problems were generally sorted.
No production Griffon engined P-51 built, considered but discarded as it was too large and the surprisingly good results of the two stage supercharger meant the Merlin 61 was a much better option.
as for piston-jet combat standard tactics for dealing with 262s was to bounce them as they came in to land due to spool up time of early jets. Significant numbers were shot down in this manner, the Luftwaffe response was to have 190s providing cover as the 262s returned. Various Allied aircraft undertook these ops.
Hope this helps
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First MiG-15 shot down on November 8, 1950 by an F-80 (1Lt Russell Brown)
A Navy Panther got one the next day.
Also on the 9th a B-29 shot one down. There were a number of B-29 MiG-kills, so I guess we should add Superfortress to the piston MiG-killers
A Navy Panther got one the next day.
Also on the 9th a B-29 shot one down. There were a number of B-29 MiG-kills, so I guess we should add Superfortress to the piston MiG-killers
2 or 3 MiG-17s shot down by A-1 Skyraiders in Vietnam also..
Remember seeing it in Canberra, Sat there for ages. Never flew and was never likely to fly. The DCA wallahs must have had a field day with the paperwork !!!
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Sea Fury - 9 August 1952, FAA pilot Lieutenant Peter "Hoagy" Carmichael Royal Navy (2nd from right with his aircraft WJ232) downed a MiG-15. I believe this was the first piston against jet success of the Korean War.
F4U Corsair - September 10, 1952, Capt. Jesse G. Folmar of VMA-312 shot down a MiG-15. This was the last jet to fall to a piston engined fighter during the war.
Unable to find any substantiation of P-51 successful engagements against Migs during the Korean conflict.
Skyraider - U.S. Navy Skyraiders in Vietnam shot down two MiG-17 jet fighters: one on 20 June 1965, a victory shared by Lieutenant Clinton B. Johnson and Lieutenant, junior grade Charles W. Hartman III of VA-25, and one on 9 October 1966 by LTJG William T. Patton of VA-176.
MIG 17 Shot Down By Skyraider
The Griffon engined Mustang may be a confusion with the Australian built CA-15, which was a Griffon powered P-51 look alike, a completely new design and did not incorporate any Mustang “bits”. Only one prototype was built.
The only Griffon powered Mustangs are those modified for the Reno races.
The aircraft referred to by effortless merely used Mustang bits and pieces (eg wings), as he says, and is by no means a modified Mustang.
F4U Corsair - September 10, 1952, Capt. Jesse G. Folmar of VMA-312 shot down a MiG-15. This was the last jet to fall to a piston engined fighter during the war.
Unable to find any substantiation of P-51 successful engagements against Migs during the Korean conflict.
Skyraider - U.S. Navy Skyraiders in Vietnam shot down two MiG-17 jet fighters: one on 20 June 1965, a victory shared by Lieutenant Clinton B. Johnson and Lieutenant, junior grade Charles W. Hartman III of VA-25, and one on 9 October 1966 by LTJG William T. Patton of VA-176.
MIG 17 Shot Down By Skyraider
The Griffon engined Mustang may be a confusion with the Australian built CA-15, which was a Griffon powered P-51 look alike, a completely new design and did not incorporate any Mustang “bits”. Only one prototype was built.
The only Griffon powered Mustangs are those modified for the Reno races.
The aircraft referred to by effortless merely used Mustang bits and pieces (eg wings), as he says, and is by no means a modified Mustang.
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There was recently a mention in an obituary ( probably The Telegraph, sorry don't have any more details ) that the chap concerned had flown ' The P-51 Mustang with its' Rolls Royce Griffon engine '.
Just another case of rolling one's eyes and ignoring it, but maybe that's where your traditional bloke down the pub got it from.
You'll probably find he was in the SAS too...
Just another case of rolling one's eyes and ignoring it, but maybe that's where your traditional bloke down the pub got it from.
You'll probably find he was in the SAS too...
