The VC 10
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Alex,
Now I am going to chance my arm here as the memory some times plays tricks on me. However when I did my VC-10 training back in 1968 we were taken to the Vickers factory at Weybridge to observe the milling of the
wing panels, and it was impressive to see a huge slab of metal placed on the machine bed and then when the operation started huge amounts of swarf . In fact I believe 80% of the slab became swarf which was collected and returned to the foundry for inclusion in a new slab.
From this I always presumed the wings were built at Weybridge but could be wrong
Now I am going to chance my arm here as the memory some times plays tricks on me. However when I did my VC-10 training back in 1968 we were taken to the Vickers factory at Weybridge to observe the milling of the
wing panels, and it was impressive to see a huge slab of metal placed on the machine bed and then when the operation started huge amounts of swarf . In fact I believe 80% of the slab became swarf which was collected and returned to the foundry for inclusion in a new slab.
From this I always presumed the wings were built at Weybridge but could be wrong
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Brit 312,
You may well be right! Maybe it was another project that was 'up-north' but pretty convinced that he said he helped install the routers for the VC-10, but as I say unfortunately I cannot ask him. It seems that Cramic Engineering were involved in a lot or aircraft engineering but doing a search on the web seems to reveal very little about Cramic themselves.
Coincidently I had a school careers trip to Weybridge when Concorde was being built there. Pretty sure it was the fuselage structures that I saw there. I always remember the anti-swarf mats at the bottom of the steps that went up into the fuselage. I assume when completed they were transported elsewhere for assembly.
You may well be right! Maybe it was another project that was 'up-north' but pretty convinced that he said he helped install the routers for the VC-10, but as I say unfortunately I cannot ask him. It seems that Cramic Engineering were involved in a lot or aircraft engineering but doing a search on the web seems to reveal very little about Cramic themselves.
Coincidently I had a school careers trip to Weybridge when Concorde was being built there. Pretty sure it was the fuselage structures that I saw there. I always remember the anti-swarf mats at the bottom of the steps that went up into the fuselage. I assume when completed they were transported elsewhere for assembly.
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It's been a wet weekend and I have been browsing PPrune (like you do), and came to the items in this thread about the incident involving ZA141. The general sentiment seems to be that the BAE crew were cowboys. Wrong on several counts. It was, in fact a joint BAE/MOD test flight. The flight trials of the tanker version were shortened to save money since so much was known about the VC10 already. As a result the program tended merely to go the the corners of the envelope already established. On the actual flight one test point was to look at the roll rate at VD (about 10% above VNE) at the max Q point where MD becomes VD, about 22000ft. This was to be done using ailerons only without the use of differential spoiler. Since spoilers could not be inhibited this could only be achieved with them out. The test point commenced at about 35000ft with a dive to achieve VM. Since the VC10 was so slippery, throttles were closed to get it to actually descend at a reasonable rate. At about 25000ft spoilers were extended as called for in the test point requirements. The nose was lowered to maintain VM to the max Q point and 30 degrees of bank applied as the point required 30 to 30 time to be recorded. Almost at once a snaking motion started which quickly increased. One pilot sensed that it was caused by the spoilers and it was agreed that they should be retracted. This immediately stopped the snaking, but the ac was now clean, nose down, no power. The only way to recover the situation was to pull out of the dive which had, by now gone way above VD (I do mean a very long way). However the elevator jacks had stalled due to the dynamic loading so it was necessary to use the TPI which it rather slower than an elevator! But it did work in the end and the ac was levelled out at about 8000ft over Wales. The crew elected to return to Filton to consider matters where it was found that a large percentage of the engine cowlings (amongst other things) were missing and the fin was badly wrinkled. You will see from the forgoing that it was not a "flutter trial" but an attempt by the powers to cut cost by not doing a full flight test programme. The incident was caused because cutting a large hole in the aft fuselage for the HDU changed the fuselage damping ratio making it totally different to the basic ac. And it WAS the spoilers that initiated the "yaw divergence". I think, therefore, it is misguided to bad mouth the crew and not a good idea in this forum which is monitored by jounos and "aviation historians" who tend to take it all as gospel truth.
BCAL
Quote from GK430 (28th Aug 2009):
This thread should be re-nmaed; The BOAC VC.10 era/memories! Are there no other former VC.10 pilots left? Perhaps not. (Excl. RAF of course)
Great stories though!
Yes, two years on, perhaps something ought to be done to redress the balance a tiny bit. Tempus fugit, unfortunately.
In 1964, as a keen 'plane spotter at SAY, I watched the first BOAC VC10 to land there. Having waited for that moment since seeing a cutaway in Flight years earlier, I was at the 06 end, and was disappointed to see her unusually on the approach to 24. My immediate impression was of a duck or goose. She turned off the runway well over a mile short of me, looking rather short with a nose-down stance.
Months later, around November, BUA started VC10 ops to SAY with the first of four VC10s, G-ASIW, on their LGW/EBB/Ndola/Lusaka(City)/SAY service. They would arrive on a Thursday afternoon and N/S, departing the following morning. The night-stop provided an opportunity for some crew training, which was great fun to watch. The SAY runway, fairly long even in those pre-sanctions-busting days, would have been a breeze after Lusaka (City).
Six years later, I was lucky enough to be posted from P2 Dart Heralds to P2 VC10 in the newly-formed BCAL. (Caledonian, with the help of the Edwards Committee, had beaten-off BOAC in the competition to buy the financially-ailing BUA.) Found myself rubbing shoulders with the same training captains, and others, that I had probably watched circuit-bashing at SAY: the likes of Bill Evans, John Moss and Bill Cumbus; not to mention F/Es like Spud Murphy, and Navs like David Page and David Kemp. There was no love lost between us and the ex-Caledonian 707 crews, who referred to our "Queen of the Skies" as the "Iron Duck".
In those days (1971) Gatwick ATC still grudgingly permitted some crew training, but I think they were a bit unhappy when we attempted a late single-engine go-around (we still called it "overshoot" in those days) on what was then 09, over the railway line. I guess there is always special affection for ones first large aeroplane, but the VC10 just beats the other five big jets I flew. What a cockpit... Four years later, when we had to convert to the excellent B707-320 (Advanced), which benefited from the hundreds of 707s that preceded it, the cockpit and most systems were like going back to the ark. We referred to the cockpit as the "broom cupboard" (not in earshot of the trainers).
BTW, BCAL's VC10s were slightly odd-ball in that, despite being "Standards", they had a modified "Super" wing which included a prominent droop-snoot L/E at the tip (including ex-prototype G-ARTA). This enabled FL430, when the weight got low enough (buffet margin still being more critical than thrust), which often came in handy. Unlike the underpowered B707-320, we could achieve FL350 even after departure at MTOW, although the fuel flows were still a lot higher weight-for-weight (and the APS weight was higher, despite fewer seats). The VC10 could depart Nairobi (5327ft amsl), however, at 141 tonnes; whereas the 707-320 with JT3D-3B turbofans could only manage about 129T, until 1975 when we (BCAL) introduced what is now known as optimised V2 (trading runway to achieve a higher V2, resulting in a better engine-out climb gradient), coupled with over-boost of the engines. That got it up to about 136T, enabling the 707-320 to achieve NBO/LGW with a comparable load to the retired Standard VC10.
Even allowing for the engine configuration, the VC10 airframe is over-engineered relative to the Seven-oh, I think. If it wasn't, we would have probably lost one over the Andes in 1973. In the case of G-ARTA, not robust enough, though, to survive the massive bounce in a limiting crosswind at the end of an empty-ferry flight (with aft CG) LHR/LGW. Sadly, her back was broken, and the undignified sight of her being gradually broken-up seemed to symbolise the demise of our VC10 fleet, as more and more 707s were acquired. By the end of 1974, the last (G-ASIW) had been sold to Air Malawi. In addition to its hot-high advantages, the VC10 was able to operate on Blantyre-Chileka's narrow runway; unlike the 707, whose outer engines would overhang the grass.
This thread should be re-nmaed; The BOAC VC.10 era/memories! Are there no other former VC.10 pilots left? Perhaps not. (Excl. RAF of course)
Great stories though!
Yes, two years on, perhaps something ought to be done to redress the balance a tiny bit. Tempus fugit, unfortunately.
In 1964, as a keen 'plane spotter at SAY, I watched the first BOAC VC10 to land there. Having waited for that moment since seeing a cutaway in Flight years earlier, I was at the 06 end, and was disappointed to see her unusually on the approach to 24. My immediate impression was of a duck or goose. She turned off the runway well over a mile short of me, looking rather short with a nose-down stance.
Months later, around November, BUA started VC10 ops to SAY with the first of four VC10s, G-ASIW, on their LGW/EBB/Ndola/Lusaka(City)/SAY service. They would arrive on a Thursday afternoon and N/S, departing the following morning. The night-stop provided an opportunity for some crew training, which was great fun to watch. The SAY runway, fairly long even in those pre-sanctions-busting days, would have been a breeze after Lusaka (City).
Six years later, I was lucky enough to be posted from P2 Dart Heralds to P2 VC10 in the newly-formed BCAL. (Caledonian, with the help of the Edwards Committee, had beaten-off BOAC in the competition to buy the financially-ailing BUA.) Found myself rubbing shoulders with the same training captains, and others, that I had probably watched circuit-bashing at SAY: the likes of Bill Evans, John Moss and Bill Cumbus; not to mention F/Es like Spud Murphy, and Navs like David Page and David Kemp. There was no love lost between us and the ex-Caledonian 707 crews, who referred to our "Queen of the Skies" as the "Iron Duck".
In those days (1971) Gatwick ATC still grudgingly permitted some crew training, but I think they were a bit unhappy when we attempted a late single-engine go-around (we still called it "overshoot" in those days) on what was then 09, over the railway line. I guess there is always special affection for ones first large aeroplane, but the VC10 just beats the other five big jets I flew. What a cockpit... Four years later, when we had to convert to the excellent B707-320 (Advanced), which benefited from the hundreds of 707s that preceded it, the cockpit and most systems were like going back to the ark. We referred to the cockpit as the "broom cupboard" (not in earshot of the trainers).
BTW, BCAL's VC10s were slightly odd-ball in that, despite being "Standards", they had a modified "Super" wing which included a prominent droop-snoot L/E at the tip (including ex-prototype G-ARTA). This enabled FL430, when the weight got low enough (buffet margin still being more critical than thrust), which often came in handy. Unlike the underpowered B707-320, we could achieve FL350 even after departure at MTOW, although the fuel flows were still a lot higher weight-for-weight (and the APS weight was higher, despite fewer seats). The VC10 could depart Nairobi (5327ft amsl), however, at 141 tonnes; whereas the 707-320 with JT3D-3B turbofans could only manage about 129T, until 1975 when we (BCAL) introduced what is now known as optimised V2 (trading runway to achieve a higher V2, resulting in a better engine-out climb gradient), coupled with over-boost of the engines. That got it up to about 136T, enabling the 707-320 to achieve NBO/LGW with a comparable load to the retired Standard VC10.
Even allowing for the engine configuration, the VC10 airframe is over-engineered relative to the Seven-oh, I think. If it wasn't, we would have probably lost one over the Andes in 1973. In the case of G-ARTA, not robust enough, though, to survive the massive bounce in a limiting crosswind at the end of an empty-ferry flight (with aft CG) LHR/LGW. Sadly, her back was broken, and the undignified sight of her being gradually broken-up seemed to symbolise the demise of our VC10 fleet, as more and more 707s were acquired. By the end of 1974, the last (G-ASIW) had been sold to Air Malawi. In addition to its hot-high advantages, the VC10 was able to operate on Blantyre-Chileka's narrow runway; unlike the 707, whose outer engines would overhang the grass.
Last edited by Chris Scott; 19th Sep 2011 at 17:27.
pontifex,
You tell an interesting tale re the ZA141 incident, of which I'd never heard. Quote:
On the actual flight one test point was to look at the roll rate at VD (about 10% above VNE) at the max Q point where MD becomes VD, about 22000ft. This was to be done using ailerons only without the use of differential spoiler. Since spoilers could not be inhibited this could only be achieved with them out.
Actually, there is a another way of avoiding roll-spoiler on the VC10. The captain's control wheel controls the ailerons, while the copilot's does the roll-spoilers. There is a lever on the centre console, IIRC, to uncouple the two. (This used to be demonstrated on pilot conversion-training. If the two were given full deflection in opposite directions, the copilot normally won.)
You tell an interesting tale re the ZA141 incident, of which I'd never heard. Quote:
On the actual flight one test point was to look at the roll rate at VD (about 10% above VNE) at the max Q point where MD becomes VD, about 22000ft. This was to be done using ailerons only without the use of differential spoiler. Since spoilers could not be inhibited this could only be achieved with them out.
Actually, there is a another way of avoiding roll-spoiler on the VC10. The captain's control wheel controls the ailerons, while the copilot's does the roll-spoilers. There is a lever on the centre console, IIRC, to uncouple the two. (This used to be demonstrated on pilot conversion-training. If the two were given full deflection in opposite directions, the copilot normally won.)
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BCAL
Chris Scott writes: "the likes of Bill Evans, John Moss and Bill Cumbus; not to mention F/Es like Spud Murphy, and Navs like David Page and David Kemp."
I started my aviation career with B.U.A. in 1966. This was as a humble Ops. Manual Clerk working in the Nav Office with David Page, David Kemp and Don Bond. If my memory serves me correctly DB claimed the longest single sector trip on the VC10 at B.U.A. with a charter from Gatwick to Beira in Mozambique for an oil company(with reduced payload). Indeed B.U.A. operated the aircraft on many charters, especially to the East Coast of U.S.A. and Canada. I recall one flight operated by Rex Cotterell (I think) that had to position empty from JFK to Toronto. The story goes that he climbed straight to FL410 totally ignoring local noise abatement regs. This caused quite a stir at the time.
I myself went on a "fam. flight" on the VC10 from Gatwick to Izmir in Turkey, which was supposed to be a normal rotation, but on the "walk round" the F/o noticed that one of the main wheel tyres had "blown". we had a spare in the hold, but no jack and there was nothing that would fit the aircraft locally. We ended up having to stay for three days whilst one was located - happy days!
I started my aviation career with B.U.A. in 1966. This was as a humble Ops. Manual Clerk working in the Nav Office with David Page, David Kemp and Don Bond. If my memory serves me correctly DB claimed the longest single sector trip on the VC10 at B.U.A. with a charter from Gatwick to Beira in Mozambique for an oil company(with reduced payload). Indeed B.U.A. operated the aircraft on many charters, especially to the East Coast of U.S.A. and Canada. I recall one flight operated by Rex Cotterell (I think) that had to position empty from JFK to Toronto. The story goes that he climbed straight to FL410 totally ignoring local noise abatement regs. This caused quite a stir at the time.
I myself went on a "fam. flight" on the VC10 from Gatwick to Izmir in Turkey, which was supposed to be a normal rotation, but on the "walk round" the F/o noticed that one of the main wheel tyres had "blown". we had a spare in the hold, but no jack and there was nothing that would fit the aircraft locally. We ended up having to stay for three days whilst one was located - happy days!
Set up a line of concrete blocks, fix or knock up a steel ramp, then pull the aircraft on to it so that one side of the bogie is on the blocks and the other side in the air. Change the wheel and push it off again.
Three days on the company sounds a lot better.
Three days on the company sounds a lot better.
''If my memory serves me correctly DB claimed the longest single sector trip on the VC10 at B.U.A. with a charter from Gatwick to Beira in Mozambique for an oil company''
Much longer flights have been done by VC10s since - I done more than one myself. In fact, I'm sure the VC10 still holds the record for a direct flight between London and Sydney.
Of course, Air to air refuelling helps!
Much longer flights have been done by VC10s since - I done more than one myself. In fact, I'm sure the VC10 still holds the record for a direct flight between London and Sydney.
Of course, Air to air refuelling helps!
