Falklands war air cover
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"Did the Yanks get the same warning as us or were they kept in the dark?"
I think they got the same warning as us... none.
I heard that a US Navy Admiral was visiting some Argentine Military Barracks on the morning of the invasion & was first informed of the action by his host.
Apparently the Admiral left the Barracks almost immediately to go straight to the US Embassy in B.A., then left Argentina shortly afterwards.
Steam Catties or STOVL Carriers...? Who knows but building a 6000ft strip on both Tristan de Cunha & St. Helena may go someway to preserve the security of the Falkland Islands while paying for themselves at the same time.
I think they got the same warning as us... none.
I heard that a US Navy Admiral was visiting some Argentine Military Barracks on the morning of the invasion & was first informed of the action by his host.
Apparently the Admiral left the Barracks almost immediately to go straight to the US Embassy in B.A., then left Argentina shortly afterwards.
Steam Catties or STOVL Carriers...? Who knows but building a 6000ft strip on both Tristan de Cunha & St. Helena may go someway to preserve the security of the Falkland Islands while paying for themselves at the same time.
building a 6000ft strip on both Tristan de Cunha & St. Helena
twochai
Last edited by twochai; 25th Dec 2008 at 23:43.
I think they got the same warning as us... none.
I heard that a US Navy Admiral was visiting some Argentine Military Barracks on the morning of the invasion & was first informed of the action by his host.
I heard that a US Navy Admiral was visiting some Argentine Military Barracks on the morning of the invasion & was first informed of the action by his host.
Difficult to move a huge number of military people around with all the logistics that involves without it being picked up.
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Of course it wasn't the first warning, if I recall correctly a small number of Argies landed on South Georgia and raised the Argie flag some days in advance of the invasion of the main islands.
But UK had been getting warnings since, certainly, 1977/8 but the UK Conservative government, thereafter, had chosen to disregard these warnings so if anyone is to blame for not preventing the invasion then it is 'Maggie'!
But UK had been getting warnings since, certainly, 1977/8 but the UK Conservative government, thereafter, had chosen to disregard these warnings so if anyone is to blame for not preventing the invasion then it is 'Maggie'!
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kk
The SS38 Exocet was fitted not just to some Leander's but also to Type 21/22 Frigates and County Class Destroyers. So although the RN knew the weapon, the defences were set up for Soviet/WP missiles of the time. The Type 22 Frigates which were anti Exocet capable, were just coming on line as was Sea Wolf which was in it's very early stages of development.
So that's why the high value units had a Type 22 Goal keeper asigned to it, unfortuneately there weren't enough Type 22's to protect all HVU's. Coventry had one with her when she was deployed as a Picket at the North end of Falkland Sound. But, she got between the six attacking A4's and Broadsword, this stopped Sea Wolf from engaging the A4's as it is a "self-defence" weapon.
I'm afraid it was a case of lessons lost again, the Type 42's got Phalanx after 82, but even that was not as good as 30mm Goalkeeper. The 20mm shredded the incoming Exocet but some its of fast moving shrapnel would still reach the Phalanx host. Goalkeeper got its kills further and so the shrapnel falled to travel far enough to reach the host. All lessons that had been learnt during WWII and forgotten.
So that's why the high value units had a Type 22 Goal keeper asigned to it, unfortuneately there weren't enough Type 22's to protect all HVU's. Coventry had one with her when she was deployed as a Picket at the North end of Falkland Sound. But, she got between the six attacking A4's and Broadsword, this stopped Sea Wolf from engaging the A4's as it is a "self-defence" weapon.
I'm afraid it was a case of lessons lost again, the Type 42's got Phalanx after 82, but even that was not as good as 30mm Goalkeeper. The 20mm shredded the incoming Exocet but some its of fast moving shrapnel would still reach the Phalanx host. Goalkeeper got its kills further and so the shrapnel falled to travel far enough to reach the host. All lessons that had been learnt during WWII and forgotten.
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trap one
Thanks for that.
I gather that several Lynx were fitted with decoy/jamming equipment on RFA Fort Austin, becoming operational two weeks after the sinking of MV Atlantic Conveyor.
The Argentine Navy had 4 Super Etendards, plus one for spares, following the French embargo on further deliveries. 5 Exocets, of which 2 sank Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor, the remaining 3 chaffed or decoyed away. It could have been a lot worse!
"All lessons that had been learnt during WWII and forgotten".
Ciarain.
Thanks for that.
I gather that several Lynx were fitted with decoy/jamming equipment on RFA Fort Austin, becoming operational two weeks after the sinking of MV Atlantic Conveyor.
The Argentine Navy had 4 Super Etendards, plus one for spares, following the French embargo on further deliveries. 5 Exocets, of which 2 sank Sheffield and Atlantic Conveyor, the remaining 3 chaffed or decoyed away. It could have been a lot worse!
"All lessons that had been learnt during WWII and forgotten".
Ciarain.
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HMS Coventry capsized after being hit by three 1,000 pound bombs from Skyhawks of Grupo 5 off Pebble Island at 3.25pm on 25th May.
The bombs were probably of British manufacture.
Ciarain.
The bombs were probably of British manufacture.
Ciarain.
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But the Argies had significantly more than 5 exocets, the French may have put an embargo on further deliveries from France to Argentina hence they were being delivered, during the conflict, from France to S.Africa where they were loaded on to an AOM DC8 and flown from S.Africa to Argentina, this Minerve DC8 F-GDJM:
I have been on that DC8, many times, and in the fuselage there was a specific electrical installation where, previously, a fan had been fitted to keep the exocets cool during their journey.
And just found this on the internet, the Argies had:
six destroyers and three frigates, all Exocet-armed
four operational Super Etendard strike fighters and their air-launched version of Exocet,
I have been on that DC8, many times, and in the fuselage there was a specific electrical installation where, previously, a fan had been fitted to keep the exocets cool during their journey.
And just found this on the internet, the Argies had:
six destroyers and three frigates, all Exocet-armed
four operational Super Etendard strike fighters and their air-launched version of Exocet,
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Yes the Argentine Armed Forces had more than 5 Exocets. They only had 5 air launched versions. Surface launched Exocets were set up near Stanley.
The French technicians in Argentina gave little or no asistance to the Argentine Navy, in order to disrupt the preparations to make them operational.
The 5 air launched Exocets were shipped to Argentina (yes on a ship) within days of the invasion of the Falklands.
Ciarain.
The French technicians in Argentina gave little or no asistance to the Argentine Navy, in order to disrupt the preparations to make them operational.
The 5 air launched Exocets were shipped to Argentina (yes on a ship) within days of the invasion of the Falklands.
Ciarain.
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All lessons learnt
AD picket ships are usually targeted and sunk when without dedicated CAP. 7.62 may hit something vital and down an AC. 20mm will hit harder but again it isn't a guarantee of a kill. 30mm Radar laid will knock AC out of the sky before they can drop their bombs if in the Low-level arena.
AEW is the best way of extending your Radar horizon.
There could be 1 way to check the concept of R09 vs what went, get someone to give all the routes flown by the attacking Argentine crews and program them into a sim, then fly the routes with the relevant defenders in the postions known. Adding an R09 Air Group into the sim, use "qualified people" who know the radar's on each aircraft to position the AEW, F4 CAP/Bucc AAR and the attackers, then fight the war again, on the sim.
AEW is the best way of extending your Radar horizon.
There could be 1 way to check the concept of R09 vs what went, get someone to give all the routes flown by the attacking Argentine crews and program them into a sim, then fly the routes with the relevant defenders in the postions known. Adding an R09 Air Group into the sim, use "qualified people" who know the radar's on each aircraft to position the AEW, F4 CAP/Bucc AAR and the attackers, then fight the war again, on the sim.
Last edited by trap one; 27th Dec 2008 at 18:31.
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Philleas Fogg
The Americans got as little warning as we had.
The French ACTIVELY stalled on deliveries of AM39 (Air-Launched Exocets) to customer nations indicating overt support for Argentina (Peru for example) or those suspected of 'ordering on Argentina's behalf' & offering covert supply & support (a certain Middle Eastern regime, fortunately no longer with us for example).
Their supply of AM39's was woefully short & with no replacements on the horizon from the manufacturer or obtainable by proxy improvised solutions were sought. Hence the improvisation that elements of 2 PARA stumbled across on the streets in Port Stanley.
The Americans got as little warning as we had.
The French ACTIVELY stalled on deliveries of AM39 (Air-Launched Exocets) to customer nations indicating overt support for Argentina (Peru for example) or those suspected of 'ordering on Argentina's behalf' & offering covert supply & support (a certain Middle Eastern regime, fortunately no longer with us for example).
Their supply of AM39's was woefully short & with no replacements on the horizon from the manufacturer or obtainable by proxy improvised solutions were sought. Hence the improvisation that elements of 2 PARA stumbled across on the streets in Port Stanley.
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Jack,
I never suggested that the Americans had warning, the Brits had warning some 4 years previously when many C130's, with payloads, under a Labour government, were dispatched to Ascension with the facility to continue to Stanley.
Then before the invasion of the Falklands the Argies had landed on South Georgia, had a gunfight with the few marines present, then raised the Argie flag.
The Brits didn't need a 'tip off' from the Americans, they'd had enough tip offs themselves but there remained Maggie, counting the pennies in her budget, yes let us retire HMS Endurannce, pull the marines out of the area, and we'll save two shillings and sixpence.
It was an accident waiting to happen but didn't Maggie milk it for all it was worth, at every re-election campaign thereafter, her (jeopardising) saving of the Falklands kept her in power for years thereafter!
I never suggested that the Americans had warning, the Brits had warning some 4 years previously when many C130's, with payloads, under a Labour government, were dispatched to Ascension with the facility to continue to Stanley.
Then before the invasion of the Falklands the Argies had landed on South Georgia, had a gunfight with the few marines present, then raised the Argie flag.
The Brits didn't need a 'tip off' from the Americans, they'd had enough tip offs themselves but there remained Maggie, counting the pennies in her budget, yes let us retire HMS Endurannce, pull the marines out of the area, and we'll save two shillings and sixpence.
It was an accident waiting to happen but didn't Maggie milk it for all it was worth, at every re-election campaign thereafter, her (jeopardising) saving of the Falklands kept her in power for years thereafter!
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Phileas
You almost sound conspiratorial. Mrs T did what she had to do at the time.
I wasn't aware there were any RM's on South Georgia at the time, just scientists.
The American's thought that any Argentine 'posturing' was going to be directed against the Chileans over disputed parts of the T de F.
HMG knew of the Argentines 'desires' towards the FI, hence the deployment to the area of 2 RN surface ships & a nuclear sub' in the mid-late 70's, but perceived it as 'Latino Bluster', especially since Argentina & UK PLC enjoyed cordial-good relations with a plethora of military trade deals immediately prior to April 1982.
You almost sound conspiratorial. Mrs T did what she had to do at the time.
I wasn't aware there were any RM's on South Georgia at the time, just scientists.
The American's thought that any Argentine 'posturing' was going to be directed against the Chileans over disputed parts of the T de F.
HMG knew of the Argentines 'desires' towards the FI, hence the deployment to the area of 2 RN surface ships & a nuclear sub' in the mid-late 70's, but perceived it as 'Latino Bluster', especially since Argentina & UK PLC enjoyed cordial-good relations with a plethora of military trade deals immediately prior to April 1982.
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Jack,
Yes she sent the task force to retake the Islands and I applauded her for it at the time but there is no getting away from the truth that the UK had previously announced the withdrawal of all UK military presence from the area and this was interpreted as a green traffic light to the Argies.
I'm not a conspirator but I'm not a liar either, UK knew that the Argies were seriously disputing the islands and until the invasion her government didn't give a sh1t about them in favour of saving a bit of money, UK had even announced the retirement of HMS Hermes which became the task force flagship, just how many green lights did Argentina need?
Yes she sent the task force to retake the Islands and I applauded her for it at the time but there is no getting away from the truth that the UK had previously announced the withdrawal of all UK military presence from the area and this was interpreted as a green traffic light to the Argies.
I'm not a conspirator but I'm not a liar either, UK knew that the Argies were seriously disputing the islands and until the invasion her government didn't give a sh1t about them in favour of saving a bit of money, UK had even announced the retirement of HMS Hermes which became the task force flagship, just how many green lights did Argentina need?
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Phileas
You're spot on with your assertions that a UK force in the South Atlantic was to be removed but I honestly think two of the real culprits were The Foreign Secretary & the Defence Secretary for taking their eye off the ball & leaving us with virtually NO intelligence gathering capabilities in South America. Mrs T could only act on what she was being told.
It makes you wonder what the state of play would be today if there had been no 'Operation Corporate'. The Labour Administration seems hell-bent on practically giving our assets away- our Gold reserves.. talking of sharing sovereignty of Gib' with Spain... our EU veto & rebate...
At least the security of the FI is in a better state than in 1982. The current protection there for the forseeable is a bit more than 2 platoons of SLR equipped RM's & some local reservists.
Rule Britannia!!
You're spot on with your assertions that a UK force in the South Atlantic was to be removed but I honestly think two of the real culprits were The Foreign Secretary & the Defence Secretary for taking their eye off the ball & leaving us with virtually NO intelligence gathering capabilities in South America. Mrs T could only act on what she was being told.
It makes you wonder what the state of play would be today if there had been no 'Operation Corporate'. The Labour Administration seems hell-bent on practically giving our assets away- our Gold reserves.. talking of sharing sovereignty of Gib' with Spain... our EU veto & rebate...
At least the security of the FI is in a better state than in 1982. The current protection there for the forseeable is a bit more than 2 platoons of SLR equipped RM's & some local reservists.
Rule Britannia!!
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That period was quite interesting, for the start of the war I was out of work so watched much of TV, ineed next door neighbour's son was on the Coventry when that was hit (he was OK though), and then I started permanent night shifts working for a US operator in LGW.
News of what was going on used to filter through somewhere around 0200Z each night and each night the guys at HQ on US west coast would be on the phone asking for news. These Americans were genuinely interested in what was going on thus my nightshifts consisted mainly of relaying developments thru to these guys, they truly were backing the Brits.
News of what was going on used to filter through somewhere around 0200Z each night and each night the guys at HQ on US west coast would be on the phone asking for news. These Americans were genuinely interested in what was going on thus my nightshifts consisted mainly of relaying developments thru to these guys, they truly were backing the Brits.
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Agreed.
I had the good fortune to meet a group of retired US Navy Officers while on a fishing holiday on Chesapeake Bay. They were remarkably candid, open & supportive of the British stance. And the list of prepared assistance they discussed to offer was mind blowing. I think they were a bit peeved to only be asked for a variant of missile, kerosene & replace RN's STANFORLANT & the RAF's NATO commitments.
More fixed 'bases' in the SA would take the pressure off our overstretched, overburdened & undersupported forces though. A couple of 'mini-ASI's' wouldn't be a step backwards.
I had the good fortune to meet a group of retired US Navy Officers while on a fishing holiday on Chesapeake Bay. They were remarkably candid, open & supportive of the British stance. And the list of prepared assistance they discussed to offer was mind blowing. I think they were a bit peeved to only be asked for a variant of missile, kerosene & replace RN's STANFORLANT & the RAF's NATO commitments.
More fixed 'bases' in the SA would take the pressure off our overstretched, overburdened & undersupported forces though. A couple of 'mini-ASI's' wouldn't be a step backwards.
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For the sake of argument, what would Merlin's surface search capability bring to a party like the Falklands? Would it have been around, would it have ben any more use than just a sub hunter?
