Mike Lithgow BAC 1-11 crash site, 1963
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Worcester
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mike Lithgow BAC 1-11 crash site, 1963
quote from Wikipedia:
Lithgow was pilot of the prototype BAC One-Eleven G-ASHG when on 22 October 1963 the aircraft entered a deep stall and crashed near Cricklade, Wiltshire. Lithgow and six other crew died.
Can anyone provide an exact location? I know the area well, but no one i have spoken to knows of the crash....
thanks!
Lithgow was pilot of the prototype BAC One-Eleven G-ASHG when on 22 October 1963 the aircraft entered a deep stall and crashed near Cricklade, Wiltshire. Lithgow and six other crew died.
Can anyone provide an exact location? I know the area well, but no one i have spoken to knows of the crash....
thanks!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Nirvana South
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the main reasons may be that the crash site was untouched. When I was an apprentice at Hurn, one of the lead hands on the line had been one of the team that did the recovery. He said the aircraft was found lying upright in a slight hollow and looking so intact that they thought the crew had got away with it - sadly not true of course.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The best I could find was a statement "2 kilometers NNW of Cricklade".
Could find no actual accident report but came up with the following.
1963 | 1903 | Flight Archive
1963 | 1904 | Flight Archive
1963 | 1939 | Flight Archive
1965 | 1977 | Flight Archive
1965 | 1978 | Flight Archive
You may also be interested in the belly landing of G-ASJD on Salisbury Plain during stall tests.
capt masland | flight international | sayen award | 1965 | 0946 | Flight Archive
Edited to add: yes, Cratt Hill.
Could find no actual accident report but came up with the following.
1963 | 1903 | Flight Archive
1963 | 1904 | Flight Archive
1963 | 1939 | Flight Archive
1965 | 1977 | Flight Archive
1965 | 1978 | Flight Archive
You may also be interested in the belly landing of G-ASJD on Salisbury Plain during stall tests.
capt masland | flight international | sayen award | 1965 | 0946 | Flight Archive
Edited to add: yes, Cratt Hill.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Go to the top of the class Jimmy. 
You've solved the problem, no wonder 233SQN was having difficulty. A closer reading of the first link I provided above states exactly that. If you go to the following link you will find a map of Chicklade with Cratt Hill shown to the NNW.
Map of Chicklade | Maps | Waterscape.com
Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see.
You've solved the problem, no wonder 233SQN was having difficulty. A closer reading of the first link I provided above states exactly that. If you go to the following link you will find a map of Chicklade with Cratt Hill shown to the NNW.Map of Chicklade | Maps | Waterscape.com
Don't believe anything you read and only half of what you see.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: ex Brooklands now Shropshire
Age: 62
Posts: 129
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wrecker & ICT_SLB are You sure You are not thinking of the forced landing of G-ASJD?
The following is an extract from G-ASHG's accident report:
"The aircraft crashed on Level ground about 700 feet a.m.s.l."
"Inertia loads at impact produced a failure of the rear fuselage which caused the fin and tailplane to swing down until the outer portions of the latter came into contact with the ground. Cabin windows and a door, with pieces of cabin furnishings, were thrown forward. The Starboard wing broke chordwise from the trailing edge at about mid-span and swung tip forward.
Fire broke out after impact and destroyed the fuselage and starboard wing. The upper portion of the fin, the tailplane and elevators, together with the outer portion of the port wing survived the fire."
A sad event.
m5dnd
The following is an extract from G-ASHG's accident report:
"The aircraft crashed on Level ground about 700 feet a.m.s.l."
"Inertia loads at impact produced a failure of the rear fuselage which caused the fin and tailplane to swing down until the outer portions of the latter came into contact with the ground. Cabin windows and a door, with pieces of cabin furnishings, were thrown forward. The Starboard wing broke chordwise from the trailing edge at about mid-span and swung tip forward.
Fire broke out after impact and destroyed the fuselage and starboard wing. The upper portion of the fin, the tailplane and elevators, together with the outer portion of the port wing survived the fire."
A sad event.
m5dnd
Last edited by m5dnd; 18th Nov 2008 at 21:43. Reason: Spelling and missing word
Yes, my thoughts exactly.
A 10,000ft/min descent rate ground impact isn't going to leave an aircraft looking as though it had just been placed there. It would be extensively 'pancaked' - as indeed it was.
A 10,000ft/min descent rate ground impact isn't going to leave an aircraft looking as though it had just been placed there. It would be extensively 'pancaked' - as indeed it was.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kerry Eire
Age: 76
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Compared to G-ASJD which escaped virtually unscathed and went on to serve BUA and British Caledonian as well as the RAe and QinetiQ see:
QinetiQ marks retirement of it historic BAC 1-11 XX105 with flypast
QinetiQ marks retirement of it historic BAC 1-11 XX105 with flypast
G-ASJD
Thanks for the Qinetiq link, philbky. So that's why she was not in BCAL (BUA's successor) in the 1970s, and explains why I couldn't find her in my log book. [JC and JE, etc., are there.]
But am surprised to read she was as late as 8th off the production line.
Of the other 200s delivered to launch-customer BUA, I think JJ was lost in an accident (at Milan?) in the late 1960s, resulting in us getting G-ASTJ. We gradually disposed of them in the early 1980s. The last couple went to Okada Air at Kano or Lagos. Shame: they were fine little ships.
Thanks for the memory, norwich.
But am surprised to read she was as late as 8th off the production line.
Of the other 200s delivered to launch-customer BUA, I think JJ was lost in an accident (at Milan?) in the late 1960s, resulting in us getting G-ASTJ. We gradually disposed of them in the early 1980s. The last couple went to Okada Air at Kano or Lagos. Shame: they were fine little ships.
Thanks for the memory, norwich.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kerry Eire
Age: 76
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chris,
SJD flew for Caledonian/BUA from 30.11.70, when the airlines merged, until September 71 when BCAL became the new name. SJD was operated by the newly named airline for less than a month, until 21.09.71 when it was sold to the RAE.
SJD was the fifth flying airframe and the last numerically to be involved in the development programme. Line numbers 2, 3, 4 were either static test or part build test structures.
STJ was not a replacement for SJJ which was w/o at Milan on 14.01.69 due to cockpit confusion after a compressor stall on take off.
STJ first flew on 25.10 65 as c/n 085 and was delivered to BUA on 09.11.65.
This was a replacement for SJB, c/n 006 which was damaged beyond repair in a heavy landing at Wisley, during the development programme, on 18.03.64.
There was talk at the time that many parts of SJB were used in building STJ but I've never been able to confirm this.
The 1-11 was the pioneer western short haul jet transport and, as such, fell victim to unforseen problems which entailed a degree of re-design along the way which retarded sales and deliveries. At one stage in 1964 there was talk of the programme being yet another Comet saga - thankfully, due to the Comet's problems, the testing was thorough and the accidents happened and fixes were found before entry into service.
The first 1-11 to be deliverd to a customer was SJI on 22.01.65 which then spent 3 months on training and route proving with mixed BAC/BUA cockpit crews, finally being fully handed over on 15.04.65. The first service was performed by SJJ on 09.04.65 from Gatwick to Genoa, having been delivered on 06.04.65.
SJH followed on 14.04.65, SJF on 22.05.65, SJG on 06.07.65, SJE on 23.07.65, SJD on 05.08.65, SJA on 11.10.65 and SJC on 06.11.65.
Meanwhile Braniff took delivery of their first aircraft (the third to be built for them) N1543 on 11.03.65.
SJD flew for Caledonian/BUA from 30.11.70, when the airlines merged, until September 71 when BCAL became the new name. SJD was operated by the newly named airline for less than a month, until 21.09.71 when it was sold to the RAE.
SJD was the fifth flying airframe and the last numerically to be involved in the development programme. Line numbers 2, 3, 4 were either static test or part build test structures.
STJ was not a replacement for SJJ which was w/o at Milan on 14.01.69 due to cockpit confusion after a compressor stall on take off.
STJ first flew on 25.10 65 as c/n 085 and was delivered to BUA on 09.11.65.
This was a replacement for SJB, c/n 006 which was damaged beyond repair in a heavy landing at Wisley, during the development programme, on 18.03.64.
There was talk at the time that many parts of SJB were used in building STJ but I've never been able to confirm this.
The 1-11 was the pioneer western short haul jet transport and, as such, fell victim to unforseen problems which entailed a degree of re-design along the way which retarded sales and deliveries. At one stage in 1964 there was talk of the programme being yet another Comet saga - thankfully, due to the Comet's problems, the testing was thorough and the accidents happened and fixes were found before entry into service.
The first 1-11 to be deliverd to a customer was SJI on 22.01.65 which then spent 3 months on training and route proving with mixed BAC/BUA cockpit crews, finally being fully handed over on 15.04.65. The first service was performed by SJJ on 09.04.65 from Gatwick to Genoa, having been delivered on 06.04.65.
SJH followed on 14.04.65, SJF on 22.05.65, SJG on 06.07.65, SJE on 23.07.65, SJD on 05.08.65, SJA on 11.10.65 and SJC on 06.11.65.
Meanwhile Braniff took delivery of their first aircraft (the third to be built for them) N1543 on 11.03.65.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
philbky,
You say "The 1-11 was the pioneer western short haul jet transport...".
I hate to be a pedant but the guys around where I work have the view that the Caravelle has the rights to that particular claim.
Saman
You say "The 1-11 was the pioneer western short haul jet transport...".
I hate to be a pedant but the guys around where I work have the view that the Caravelle has the rights to that particular claim.
Saman
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kerry Eire
Age: 76
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I knew someone would mention the Caravelle but the context in which the two types were intended to operate were different. The Caravelle, (versions I - VIR) even with a shorter range than any of the the 1-11 200 series, was intended for main line use on sectors of upwards of an hour. It was intended to use major airports and, until the VIR variant didn't have reverse thrust.
The 1-11 200 series was designed for short hops and marketed as "The Bus Stop Jet" being fitted with thrust reversers from the start to allow it to use shorter runways and its economics were such that it could operate at a profit on sectors as short as 30 minutes with less than a 50% load factor and was designed from day one to operate independently of ground services at airports allowing very fast turnarounds - no Caravelle could do that.
Thus airlines such as Braniff and Mohawk, which could have had delivery of the Caravelle VIR some three years in advance of the 1-11 waited for the aircraft which was designed to operate economically over the shortest of sectors whilst also offering a range of over 1800 nautical miles at the other end of the spectrum.
The 1-11 200 series was designed for short hops and marketed as "The Bus Stop Jet" being fitted with thrust reversers from the start to allow it to use shorter runways and its economics were such that it could operate at a profit on sectors as short as 30 minutes with less than a 50% load factor and was designed from day one to operate independently of ground services at airports allowing very fast turnarounds - no Caravelle could do that.
Thus airlines such as Braniff and Mohawk, which could have had delivery of the Caravelle VIR some three years in advance of the 1-11 waited for the aircraft which was designed to operate economically over the shortest of sectors whilst also offering a range of over 1800 nautical miles at the other end of the spectrum.
That was all very interesting, philbky, and cleared up a number of questions – thank you.
As well as JD, I had wondered what happened to JA and JB. So JB was written off before delivery, but JA was delivered to BUA on 11.10.65. I wonder when she was sold on, and where to.
Hi saman, I've also got a soft spot for the impressive Caravelle, having passengered on one (LHR-NCE) in 1959. But the similarity was indeed superficial. As philbky implies, the OneEleven boasts an APU to provide electrics and air conditioning on the ground, as well as air for engine starting. The Spey is a 2-spool by-pass engine with a by-pass ratio of about 1·0:1 (modern turbofans are ~5:1), giving much better fuel economy than the turbojet Avon, particularly at low altitude. All the systems are simple and automated enough for 2-pilot operation. I think the Caravelle uses a flight engineer? With no thrust reversers, I doubt it could operate schedules into a short field like Jersey. [Forgive me if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs, by the way. Sounds like you might be at Blagnac...]
As well as JD, I had wondered what happened to JA and JB. So JB was written off before delivery, but JA was delivered to BUA on 11.10.65. I wonder when she was sold on, and where to.
Hi saman, I've also got a soft spot for the impressive Caravelle, having passengered on one (LHR-NCE) in 1959. But the similarity was indeed superficial. As philbky implies, the OneEleven boasts an APU to provide electrics and air conditioning on the ground, as well as air for engine starting. The Spey is a 2-spool by-pass engine with a by-pass ratio of about 1·0:1 (modern turbofans are ~5:1), giving much better fuel economy than the turbojet Avon, particularly at low altitude. All the systems are simple and automated enough for 2-pilot operation. I think the Caravelle uses a flight engineer? With no thrust reversers, I doubt it could operate schedules into a short field like Jersey. [Forgive me if I'm teaching granny to suck eggs, by the way. Sounds like you might be at Blagnac...]
Last edited by Chris Scott; 20th Nov 2008 at 23:17.
Hi Chris
BUA sold G-ASJA to the USA in October 1969. It became an executive aircraft.
At a slight tangent I've sent you a PM re Morton Air Services/BUIA if you've got a moment to spare!
Dave
BUA sold G-ASJA to the USA in October 1969. It became an executive aircraft.
At a slight tangent I've sent you a PM re Morton Air Services/BUIA if you've got a moment to spare!
Dave
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Came across this thread whilst hunting for something else.
The comments in the posts have the basic story but have confused them somewhat. Could I as a "newbie" set the record straight ?
The prototype BAC 1-11 crashed as a result of entering a "super-stall" from which the crew could not recover. The aircraft fell almost level onto open farmland near Chicklade in Wiltshire and was almost totally destroyed by fire. I believe that there is a memorial to the crew in the church at nearby Hindon. There was a full page photo of the site in the press (Express ?) the next day, and as someone has commented, a very quick glance from the air would have given the impression of an intact aircraft.
Some months later another trials aircraft was thought to have entered a super-stall, the crew deployed a tail parachute which had been fitted to rectify this eventuality. Having recovered normal flight they were unable to jettison the parachute and as a result made a belly landing on West Lavington Down just off the A360 between Salisbury & Devizes. The aircraft suffered remarkably little damage and originally it was thought possible to fly it out. In the end, the wings, tail and engines were removed and the aircraft was transported away (to Hurn ?) by road.
I lived in a village about 5 miles from the crash site but was not living at home at the time having joined the RN.
However, my father saw the huge plume of smoke from the crash and thought that a Gloster Javelin which he had noticed flying around earlier had crashed.
Several years later my father's brother, who worked on the farm containing the crash site, ploughed up a pitot head assembly from the aircraft. He gave this to my father, and for years it was in our garden shed - unfortunately it must have been thrown away after my father's death.
I was actually home on leave when the belly landing occurred and visited the site with my father. It did look strange to see an large (at the time !) airliner on its belly in the middle of a field. The BUA name on the aircraft had been crudely covered up with brown paper and sticky tape. I did take some photographs but these too have vanished over the years.
Hope that helps.
The comments in the posts have the basic story but have confused them somewhat. Could I as a "newbie" set the record straight ?
The prototype BAC 1-11 crashed as a result of entering a "super-stall" from which the crew could not recover. The aircraft fell almost level onto open farmland near Chicklade in Wiltshire and was almost totally destroyed by fire. I believe that there is a memorial to the crew in the church at nearby Hindon. There was a full page photo of the site in the press (Express ?) the next day, and as someone has commented, a very quick glance from the air would have given the impression of an intact aircraft.
Some months later another trials aircraft was thought to have entered a super-stall, the crew deployed a tail parachute which had been fitted to rectify this eventuality. Having recovered normal flight they were unable to jettison the parachute and as a result made a belly landing on West Lavington Down just off the A360 between Salisbury & Devizes. The aircraft suffered remarkably little damage and originally it was thought possible to fly it out. In the end, the wings, tail and engines were removed and the aircraft was transported away (to Hurn ?) by road.
I lived in a village about 5 miles from the crash site but was not living at home at the time having joined the RN.
However, my father saw the huge plume of smoke from the crash and thought that a Gloster Javelin which he had noticed flying around earlier had crashed.
Several years later my father's brother, who worked on the farm containing the crash site, ploughed up a pitot head assembly from the aircraft. He gave this to my father, and for years it was in our garden shed - unfortunately it must have been thrown away after my father's death.
I was actually home on leave when the belly landing occurred and visited the site with my father. It did look strange to see an large (at the time !) airliner on its belly in the middle of a field. The BUA name on the aircraft had been crudely covered up with brown paper and sticky tape. I did take some photographs but these too have vanished over the years.
Hope that helps.