Brand new Bombers flown into the sea??? Myth or reality?
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Re Lancastrian.
The Canadians converted a number of Lancasters for the trans Atlantic transport role and were known as the Lancaster XPP (Mk. X Passenger Plane). Later when some of these were taken onto the British register they were registered as Lancastrians. Janes also refers to these aircraft as Lancastrians. The Lancastrian term however did not come into usage until well after when problems with the developement of the Tudor prompted BOAC to encourage Avro to undertake production of a transport version of the Lancaster. The resulting aircraft was the Lancastrian and was a more detailed development than the Canadian Lancaster XPP. At the end of the day I guess it may boil down to semantics as to what one may call a conversion, or aiframe that deserves the title Lancastrian.
The Canadians converted a number of Lancasters for the trans Atlantic transport role and were known as the Lancaster XPP (Mk. X Passenger Plane). Later when some of these were taken onto the British register they were registered as Lancastrians. Janes also refers to these aircraft as Lancastrians. The Lancastrian term however did not come into usage until well after when problems with the developement of the Tudor prompted BOAC to encourage Avro to undertake production of a transport version of the Lancaster. The resulting aircraft was the Lancastrian and was a more detailed development than the Canadian Lancaster XPP. At the end of the day I guess it may boil down to semantics as to what one may call a conversion, or aiframe that deserves the title Lancastrian.
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Brian Abraham:
Thanks for clearing that up.
When one considers the developments made from the original Lancaster (Lancastrians, Lincoln, Shackleton, Tudor) it shows the brilliance and versatility of Roy Chadwick's design.
Thanks for clearing that up.
When one considers the developments made from the original Lancaster (Lancastrians, Lincoln, Shackleton, Tudor) it shows the brilliance and versatility of Roy Chadwick's design.
Cunning Artificer
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the developments made from the original Lancaster
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Argosy wings
I could be wrong but I always understood the Agosy wing was the same as the Shackleton Mk.3.
The Mk.3 wing was slighty different from the Shackleton Mk.2 wing and had a shorter fatigue life. The Shackleton Mk.3 was timex before the Mk2.
The Mk.3 wing was slighty different from the Shackleton Mk.2 wing and had a shorter fatigue life. The Shackleton Mk.3 was timex before the Mk2.
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Following VJ Day the British Pacific Fleet used the four carriers then in Sydney to dump lend lease Corsairs and Avengers in the water off the heads. Barges were also used. The full range of aircraft dumped I don't have details of but believe included brand new Mustangs still in protective shipping covers.
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I heard of Spitfires being produced, delivered, test flown for acceptance, and then being towed to the other end of the airfield to be scrapped, soon after the end of WWII.
The person who told me was my flying scholarship FI, called (no relation) Jonny Johnson. Played/looked as if he'd been in the RAF, but not sure how true that was, either. He was at Luton Flying Club in the late 70s.
The person who told me was my flying scholarship FI, called (no relation) Jonny Johnson. Played/looked as if he'd been in the RAF, but not sure how true that was, either. He was at Luton Flying Club in the late 70s.
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Krakatoa. The Argosy wing was, indeed, structurally and aerodynamically that of a Shackleton MK3. The top illustration is a MK3 and the lower a MK2 (and identical to a Lincoln)
AVRO (soon to become Hawker Siddeley, AVRO Whitworth Division) allocated their Type No 733 to the mainplane they designed for the AW Argosy. The Shack MK3 mainplane didn't, in fact, have a lower fatigue life than the MK2's; except when attached to a Shack MK3 Phase 3 where the extra AUW and thrust from 2 BS Vipers hammered hell out of it.
Back to Thread: scrap/destruction direct from build doesn't seem to have been a common event with Lancasters. My reference is the "Individual Histories" in Harry Holmes excellent book "AVRO Lancaster - the definitive record". Lots of cancelled contracts from "shadow factories" before construction commenced and a very few long storage at MUs (eg SW298, a MK1 FE from Armstrong Whitworth commencing May '45, on charge at 38, 32, 15 MUs, Near East, sold to scrap November '54).
AVRO (soon to become Hawker Siddeley, AVRO Whitworth Division) allocated their Type No 733 to the mainplane they designed for the AW Argosy. The Shack MK3 mainplane didn't, in fact, have a lower fatigue life than the MK2's; except when attached to a Shack MK3 Phase 3 where the extra AUW and thrust from 2 BS Vipers hammered hell out of it.
Back to Thread: scrap/destruction direct from build doesn't seem to have been a common event with Lancasters. My reference is the "Individual Histories" in Harry Holmes excellent book "AVRO Lancaster - the definitive record". Lots of cancelled contracts from "shadow factories" before construction commenced and a very few long storage at MUs (eg SW298, a MK1 FE from Armstrong Whitworth commencing May '45, on charge at 38, 32, 15 MUs, Near East, sold to scrap November '54).
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 11th May 2008 at 00:44. Reason: Lancaster has two "a" s in it .
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Sunderland.
I worked on them asa electrical mechanic for their last 2 years at Pemboke Dock. Theydid not have a sea cock but what about the HF tube for the trailing aerial. If you unscrewed that you would sink one. Also many years later I met an old Sunderland Nav. who told me the story of Sunderlands on a world tour that when they got as far as Cape Town they were given permission to taxi them out to sea and sink them because of their poor condition. It was just not worth flying them back to the UK. hat is the only time that I have heard this tale. RP
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RAF Dumfries
The area where the aircraft were buried in (looking at the overhead photos) is now a forest owned by the Forestry Commission I believe. the musuem know about it but with their current finiancial crisis are unable to do anything.
The area where the aircraft were buried in (looking at the overhead photos) is now a forest owned by the Forestry Commission I believe. the musuem know about it but with their current finiancial crisis are unable to do anything.
Given the size of hole needed for an aeroplane why would they bother especially given the intrinsic value of the scrap material and the fact that there was a disposal agency set up to process all the war surplus airframes.
Just in case anybody wonders about the Sunderland in Sullm Voe it was dumped after returning from a patrol so full of holes that the pilot taxiied it up the slipway. After salvaging all the useful bits it was towed out into the Voe to sink. It didn't half cause some fuss when they did a seabed survey in the early 80's just before they started bring oil tankers into the shiny new terminal.......... As did the piles of 40mm Bofors ammo dumped into the sea.....
Just in case anybody wonders about the Sunderland in Sullm Voe it was dumped after returning from a patrol so full of holes that the pilot taxiied it up the slipway. After salvaging all the useful bits it was towed out into the Voe to sink. It didn't half cause some fuss when they did a seabed survey in the early 80's just before they started bring oil tankers into the shiny new terminal.......... As did the piles of 40mm Bofors ammo dumped into the sea.....
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Scuttled Sunderlands
My father always told me that W6076 (95/D), which had been his for over a year at Bathurst, was scuttled after VE Day, and definitely before he left. I think that the Bowyer book describes it as SOC. It certainly disappears abruptly from his logbook!
I'm sure he told me that all the Mk III Sunderlands were abandoned there, and only the Mk. Vs brought home. Sadly, I can no longer ask him.
I'm sure he told me that all the Mk III Sunderlands were abandoned there, and only the Mk. Vs brought home. Sadly, I can no longer ask him.
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Fleet Air Arm surplus aircraft after VJ Day
After VJ Day, my Father-in-Law was involved with dumping lots of surplus FAA aircraft near Brisbane. Many were towed to a swamp and sunk. Others were loaded onto aircraft carriers taken offshore and heaved over the side. He showed me photos of the convoys of aircraft being towed through Brisbane to the swamp and the docks. Aircraft included Corsairs and Barracudas.
I passed details of this operation and copies of the photos to the FAA Museum many years ago when they were trying to locate a Barracuda to add to their collection. I understand that the FAA Museum still doesn't have a Barracuda, just assorted bits from various crashed examples.
I have visions of fossilised Corsairs and Barracudas being discovered by geologists millions of years from now
I passed details of this operation and copies of the photos to the FAA Museum many years ago when they were trying to locate a Barracuda to add to their collection. I understand that the FAA Museum still doesn't have a Barracuda, just assorted bits from various crashed examples.
I have visions of fossilised Corsairs and Barracudas being discovered by geologists millions of years from now
Last edited by Porrohman; 18th May 2008 at 19:28. Reason: typo
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One of my cousins,a pre-war Halton apprentice,told me that he was involved at the end of WW11 in dumping unpacked equipment including whole aircraft overboard from a carrier as it steamed up the channel.It was carried out at the request of the USA
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Given the size of hole needed for an aeroplane why would they bother
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Scuttling Sunderlands
I blundered in to this on another forum:
http://www.divetheworld.com/Diving/w...9044/index.htm
It seems to record at least two confirmed scuttlings.
http://www.divetheworld.com/Diving/w...9044/index.htm
It seems to record at least two confirmed scuttlings.
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< Scuttling Sunderlands
I blundered in to this on another forum:
http://www.divetheworld.com/Diving/w...9044/index.htm
It seems to record at least two confirmed scuttlings.>
Great site, I particularly like the d(r)owned B17 off the Norwegian coast that looks almost complete.
Shame that I can't find any images of soggy Sunderlands or Lancs on the web
I blundered in to this on another forum:
http://www.divetheworld.com/Diving/w...9044/index.htm
It seems to record at least two confirmed scuttlings.>
Great site, I particularly like the d(r)owned B17 off the Norwegian coast that looks almost complete.
Shame that I can't find any images of soggy Sunderlands or Lancs on the web
Hi there
I read an account in an old veteran's memoirs of delivering an Anson Mk 1 to a desert base, after a very tiring and weather-troubled haul from the UK, near the end of WW II.A senior NCO accepted the aircraft, after having complained bitterly that he had indented for a Mk 19(or similar).To the pilot's dismay,the NCO set fire to the old Anson within hours of it's arrival.
regards
TDD
I read an account in an old veteran's memoirs of delivering an Anson Mk 1 to a desert base, after a very tiring and weather-troubled haul from the UK, near the end of WW II.A senior NCO accepted the aircraft, after having complained bitterly that he had indented for a Mk 19(or similar).To the pilot's dismay,the NCO set fire to the old Anson within hours of it's arrival.
regards
TDD
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With regards to underwater wrecks etc, does anybody know if there is a compehensive list available of underwater aircraft wrecks that can be dived on with standard scuba gear? I'm aware of the better known wrecks in the South West Pacific, but there must be others?
Cheers!
LP
Cheers!
LP