Lancasters and 0.50 Cal Machine Guns

[beefix]

Here's a fast ball for all you experts out there. During WW2 were any Lancasters ever fitted with 0.50 cal machine guns? The reason I ask is quite complicted but it has something to do with mid air collision over Ruskington Fen in 1944.

[alvin-sfc]

Yes they were.They were used in the Rose turrets,as opposed to the usual Frazer Nash turrets which had 303 inch caliber guns.

[EGGP]

I recall seeing a photograph in one of the Ian Allan Lancaster at war series of a rear turret with two .50 calibre guns in it.

However this website says only a few upper turrets had these fitted.

http://www.lancastermuseum.ca/airgunners3.html


EGGP

[chiglet]

AFAIK the turrets were "Rose-Rice" pieces of kit. [That is according to an ex-colleague of mine]..who was a Lanc tail gunner...in a RR turret
watpiktch

[DucatiST4]

I think they were only ever fitted in the rear turret (two of them instead of the 4 .303's).

[forget]

Late in the war, the Lancaster's lack of defensive armament finally began to be corrected. Aircraft began to arrive with two 0.50 Cal. machine guns located in both the Rear and Mid-Upper turret positions. Although, the 0.50 caliber had a far greater range and more destructive hitting force than that of the 0.303, it still did not equal the German 20mm (0.75") cannons which were installed in most night-fighter aircraft.

http://www.ian.com.au/contact/lancaster5.htm

[clunckdriver]

Sugest you read "BOMBER OFFENSIVE "by Sir Arthur Harris, he goes into great detail on the problems of getting the 50call gun into service, during my time as a sprog on various RCAF outfits I was privaliged to listen to acounts from various ex Bomber Comand crews on the subject of the British "pea shotter" 303 guns, including the only Air Gunner "Ace" in the RCAF.

[Lancasterman]

50 cal

Late in the production line of Canadian Mark X Lancs, the top turret was replaced after structural modifications with a Martin 250 turret.

[Brian Abraham]

The use of the .50 had been considered in the Air Staff’s 1938 “ideal bomber” paper. The supply of .50’s was never sufficient to allow changes on any large scale prior to 1944, when some Lancaster Is and IIIs were fitted with Frazer-Nash FN.82 or Rose Brothers tail turrets, mounting two of the American weapons. When Austin Motors became the last company to commence Lancaster production it was intended to produce a new version, the B.VII, with .50 guns in the dorsal (Martin turret) and tail turrets, the former being moved further forward than on earlier versions. The shortage of heavier guns (.50s) led to some aircraft being completed as B.1 (Interim) types with the existing turrets in the new position, but a few B.VIIs were completed before the end of the war.
Some Lancaster units (particularly the Canadian 6 Group) discarded the H2S in favour of ventral guns, either the original turret, or using either a single manually operated .50 or .303
Experiments were carried out with 20mm Hispano cannons in May 44.

[beefix]

Gentlemen. Thank you for all that information, it's been a great help. Now for the next question. Were the Lancaster's that had these 0.50 guns fitted allocated to certain Sqns within Bomber Cmd or were they issued to all and sundry? I'm trying to sort out what aircraft were involved in a mid-air collision over Ruskington Fen (near Lincoln) in 1944. A grand old gentleman I know witnessed the crash (he was about 13 at the time) and he maintains that it was two Lancasters. After that crash site was cleared he managed to pick up a few bits and pieces including a 0.50 round of ammo. Someone has now told him if that's the case then one of the aircraft involved must have been American as they were the only Air Force that used 0.50 guns. Hmm, I now know that's not the case. The gentleman seems to remember that one of the Lancasters was from East Kirby. So now I need to find out which Sqns had these guns fitted. My son has a Robert Taylor print depicting a 101 Sqn ABC (AirBorne Cigar) Lancaster at Ludford Magna, it appears to have only two barrels in the rear turret so I suspect these must be 0.50 guns.

[forget]

Try this Gold Mine! http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/bomber.php?id=1073

Lancaster LM162 Information
Type Lancaster
Serial Number LM162
Squadron 50
X1D VN-Z
Operation Stuttgart
Date 1 12th September 1944
Date 2 13th September 1944

"Serial Range LL617 - LM296 This aircraft was one of 450 Lancasters ordered from Armstrong Whitworth Aircraft Apr42 and delivered as 100 Mk.11 with Hercules XV1 engines and 350 Mk.1s with Merlin 24 engines initially installed. LM162 was a Mk.1 and was delivered to 50 Sqdn Jun44. LM162 took part in the Key Raid on Secqueville 7/8Aug44. when lost this aircraft had a total of 253 hours. Airborne 1852 12Sep44 from Skellingthorpe. Returned to base and whilst preparing to land was struck by another aircraft. The collision occurred at 1,200 feet in the Skellingthorpe circuit and the Lancaster crashed 0233 13Sep44 at North Greetwell, apx. 3 miles NE from the centre of Lincoln. F/O F.H.Hickling Sgt J.M.Nash Inj Sgt E.W.Glossop F/S D.C.Watson F/S A.C.Thompson Sgt W.H.Ponton Inj Sgt R.C.McCallum "

[forget]

Lancaster/Lancaster mid air in Lincoln area - but 1942.

http://www.doverwarmemorialproject.o.../SurnamesG.htm

Edward Arthur Gardiner, 625967, was a Flight Engineer Sergeant in 9 Squadron, RAF.

He took off in Avro Lancaster W4182 WS-B from Waddington, Lincolnshire at 18:15 hours on 20th December 1942, for a raid on Duisburg, Germany. Soon after taking off Lancaster W4182 collided with another Lancaster in the darkness. Both bombers fell from the sky out of control and crashed on Bracebridge Heath, about 2 miles south of Lincoln. In a moment, 14 RAF airmen lost their lives.


Also; http://www.worldwar2exraf.co.uk/Airc...board%2027.htm

1318564 Sergeant (W/O) E B (Ted) Cachart is looking for anyone who might remember him.or his crew members. Ted was involved in a mid air collision when their Lancaster III serial JB231 code EA-N from 49 Squadron took off from RAF Fiskerton at 2346 on 1/2.01.1944 on Ops to Berlin. As Ted put it they were extremely lucky as they survived a head on collision with another Lancaster, both with a full bomb load and approximately 65 % of the fuel load - unfortunately, the other crew were all killed as far as Ted knows. There were no collision reports from any survivors of aircraft lost or damaged that night.

[beefix]

Gentlemen,thank you for all the information. I will now wrap up this thread. On the night of the 2nd March 1945 (yes 1945 not 1944) two Lancasters,carrying out a fighter affiliation exercise, collided over Ruskington Fen Farm, Lincolnshire. Sadly there were no survivors. The aircraft involved were: ME 473 belonging to 207 Sqn from RAF Spilsby and ND 572 belonging to 57 Sqn from RAF East Kirby. This was the crash witnessed by my old friend.
The 207 Sqn aircraft was a nearly new Mk 111 which I am told had 0.50cal guns fitted to the rear turret. In 1995 the site was excavated and some human remains were recovered. This discovery allowed the positive identification of some unidentified remains that were recovered during the post crash clear up of the site in 1945.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Originally Posted by forget

Soon after taking off Lancaster W4182 collided with another Lancaster in the darkness. Both bombers fell from the sky out of control and crashed on Bracebridge Heath, about 2 miles south of Lincoln.

How ironic that B H was an AVRO repair site.

[Dan Winterland]

The Rose-Rice Turret



It was fitted to Lancasters of 150 Sqn for testing in 1943. It subsequently enteres service in 1 Group being used by numbers 83, 101, 153 and 170 Sqns. About 180 aircraft had them fitted. It had improved hydraullic systems and gunsights over the standard Fraser Nash turret and the stopping power of the .50 cal. However, it had considerably less ammunitin and was very cold due to the large openening in the perspex. But it was popular with it's operators as it was roomy, and was easy to escape from. The operator just had to roll out of the hole. Also, the operator could wear a back pack parachute whereas with the Fraser Nash turret, the gunner had to clip on a seat type parachute to bail out.

Fraser Nash subsequently fitted twin .50 cals to it's turrets, but these didn't enter service until after the war.

Another developement of the Fraser Nash was the 'Village Greeen' or AGLT system where a gun laying radar guided the operator.



These turrets were also fitted to 101 Sqn Lancasters. 101 got special treatment because it carried the ABC or 'Airborne Cigar' jamming system. transmitters on the aircraft transmitted either engine noise from a microphone in the cowling or 'spoofing instructions' from an extra German speaking crewmember. 101 Sqn had particularly heavy losses - partly because they flew on nearly every raid.

The AGLT was not the same as the 'Monica' rearward facing radar fitted to some British bombers. this was not too successful as the Germans developed a receiver able to home in on Monica radars.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

From: http://www.tmquinn.net/airgunners/memorialroom/fn82.jpg

[beefix]

Gentlemen, what can I say apart from thank you very much. I have now seen the 0.50 round (still live BTW) it has SL 43 stamped on the base. I wonder were it was made? I don't really want to kick this thread off again but all this is really interesting stuff. My old friend will donate the round to the small RAF Metheringham Museum located on what's left of the old RAF Metheringham airfield near Metheringham, Lincoln. My son (an RAF Regt Reserve NCO) will ensure the round is made safe. Here's the link to the ME 473, the 207 Sqn aircraft. Click on search and then type in ME 473, then click on find.

http://www.207squadron.rafinfo.org.uk/

[TwoDeadDogs]

Hi there
A very interesting thread...I recall reading an anecdote whereby Harris is said, after the umpteenth delay to the procurement of 0.50 turrets, because of an argument about payment, to have told his staff, "Order 'em.They'll get paid anyway!"(or thereabouts) and Rose Bros began to churn them out.
regards
TDD

[S'land]

beefix:

I have now seen the 0.50 round (still live BTW) it has SL 43 stamped on the base. I wonder were it was made? I don't really want to kick this thread off again but all this is really interesting stuff.

In the few months that I have been a member of this board I have been amazed at the knowledge to be found here. I even at one stage thought of taking a screw (threaded type) off an aircraft and posting a photograph of it in this forum to see if anyone could identify it. I decided not to as I am certain that such a challenge would only last a few hours at best.

Joking aside, I feel sure that members of this forum will be able to give you full chapter and verse on the round in question.

[Dan Winterland]

Quote: "I have now seen the 0.50 round (still live BTW) it has SL 43 stamped on the base. I wonder were it was made?".

Easy one. At the St Louis Ordnance Company, in 1943.

The .50 Cal has a long history. Designed at the end of WW1 by Browning, it uses the semi-recoil principle designed by Maxim. Too late to enter the war, it didn't enter service until 1923. It was used extensively during WW2, and is still in use in many countries. It simply can't be bettered in the support fire role. Almost universally known as the M2, it's known as the HMG (Heavy Machine Gun) in the British Army. There was recent footage of prince Harry firing one in Afghanistan on the telly.

It's so accurate, it was also developed into a sniper rifle during the Vietnam war. Also, in WW2 the standard .50cal ammo belt was 27' long. This is where the expression "The whole nine yards" comes from. If you give someone the "whole nine yards", you press the trigger until the gun stops firing.