How many engines on a Trident Three?
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How many engines on a Trident Three?
I have seen a picture of a Trident Three in Airliner World (Page 74, April Issue) Looks like it has a 'little engine' just above number 2. Is that a APU or an extra engine for take off?
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That sounds like the Trident 3 series.
They had a fourth engine as a booster engine for 'Hot and High' Airfields to assist in take off.
The advisory was to only use the assistance if fully loaded but sometimes the aircraft took off empty with the booster engine running for an impressive take off and climb performance.
(wish I was on one)
They had a fourth engine as a booster engine for 'Hot and High' Airfields to assist in take off.
The advisory was to only use the assistance if fully loaded but sometimes the aircraft took off empty with the booster engine running for an impressive take off and climb performance.
(wish I was on one)
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Ahhhh. I see. thats very interesting. Any pilots out there that have used the fourth engine? Could you really feel the extra performance on takeoff? Seems like a zero bypass, proper jet. Must have had one hell of a scream when in use.
5 if you include the apu. Often did wet starts with the booster at Glasgow (always used booster for departure); vapour followed by a gout of flame sometimes causing 'distress' to the BCal 1-11 behind it!
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The 'Ground Gripper' needed the boost at high wts & above 18c.
(Lucky the Earth is a spheroid, otherwise the Gripper would never get airborne- CFU 27c 67 pax wait 'til 1900lt for temp to moderate, even then a tech stop in NCE. I know I was on it as our Vomet AOG in CFU & me on @ 0630 next day)
(Lucky the Earth is a spheroid, otherwise the Gripper would never get airborne- CFU 27c 67 pax wait 'til 1900lt for temp to moderate, even then a tech stop in NCE. I know I was on it as our Vomet AOG in CFU & me on @ 0630 next day)
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Trident two was a Trident 1 airframe with uprated Speys, probably the 'best' Trident. Trident 3 is a stretched 2, but the Spey couldn't be further developed so the '3' was a tad underpowered for hot and high takeoffs. Hence the boost engine.
Ahhhh. I see. thats very interesting. Any pilots out there that have used the fourth engine? Could you really feel the extra performance on takeoff? Seems like a zero bypass, proper jet. Must have had one hell of a scream when in use.
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This image clearly shows the extra exhaust nozzle
(for a larger image click here http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1043418/ )
(for a larger image click here http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1043418/ )
The Boost Engine was a RB162 which was originally developed as a lift engine for one of the VTOL aircraft which never got built. The engine had a total loss oil system and needed to to be "oiled" on every flight even if not used. The RB162 contained a lot of composite (plastic) parts. Initially it was only to be used on take off and up to Fl100 with a maximum speed of (if I remember correctly 235kts)and not in icing conditions.It subsequently was permitted to be started below FL100 for approach and possible G/A if a main engine had failed. I tried that once with Number 3 engine shut down, the boost started ok (suprise) but failed with a loud bang some 2 minutes later. On inspection after landing the complete rotating assembly was missing and only a casing remaining!
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Trident
I seem to remember travelling in a Trident 2 with rear facing seats.
Didn't bother me but I understand it wasn't a popular layout.
Only other type I know of with similar layout was RAF VC10, but I am sure others can list several more.
Didn't bother me but I understand it wasn't a popular layout.
Only other type I know of with similar layout was RAF VC10, but I am sure others can list several more.
Last edited by Cunliffe; 1st Apr 2008 at 11:56. Reason: Spellin Error
The front row faced aft, as I recall, which was strangely uncomfortable for those in it, as they were gazed at by all the other passengers and vv. And you did have to hold yourself in the seat during the initial climb.
Also being up against the bulkhead the seats would not recline (and maybe had no hinge anyway, to stay within 9G stress requirements?)
The RAF Britannias were also aft-facing, and very comfortable too. But less of a climb angle, I suppose.
I tried to introduce rear-facing seats with an oil charter operation, for safety.
Penalty was no recline (not a problem) and greater weight for the stronger seatback and mounting, resulting in loss of 2/40 seats.
"You must be joking", said the bean-counters as they killed the idea dead. "Lose 2 seats? For safety? Are you mad?"
Also being up against the bulkhead the seats would not recline (and maybe had no hinge anyway, to stay within 9G stress requirements?)
The RAF Britannias were also aft-facing, and very comfortable too. But less of a climb angle, I suppose.
I tried to introduce rear-facing seats with an oil charter operation, for safety.
Penalty was no recline (not a problem) and greater weight for the stronger seatback and mounting, resulting in loss of 2/40 seats.
"You must be joking", said the bean-counters as they killed the idea dead. "Lose 2 seats? For safety? Are you mad?"
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boost engine?
As far as I can remenber the Boost engine was (on a good day) about as reliable as a second hand lawnmower, as soon as summer came we would be inundated with boost engine "failed to start" snags.
As said above the front en of the engine was mostly plastic and was likely to melt if any heat was conducted forward to the compressor so in the air the intake doors stayed open for 2 min to let the engine windmill after shutdown to cool the thing down. On the ground it was nessesary to dry cycle the engine after shutdown to cool it.
The engine had no starter motor so bleed air (from main engines or APU) was used to start, this was ducted over the turbine to spin the engine! start as automatic and thrust setings controled by micro switches in the main engine throttle quadrant.
As said above the front en of the engine was mostly plastic and was likely to melt if any heat was conducted forward to the compressor so in the air the intake doors stayed open for 2 min to let the engine windmill after shutdown to cool the thing down. On the ground it was nessesary to dry cycle the engine after shutdown to cool it.
The engine had no starter motor so bleed air (from main engines or APU) was used to start, this was ducted over the turbine to spin the engine! start as automatic and thrust setings controled by micro switches in the main engine throttle quadrant.
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Rear facing seats
From memory - and I did fly in them a lot in the 70s and very early 80s - the T1s and T2s had one row of aft facing seats, the T3s had several rows. In those days there was a First Class cabin as well.
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Fire !
One night shift Myself and one other went out to try to clear a "no start" snag on one of these "engines"after three or four attempts it was clear that something was amiss, there was lots of fuel so we guessed that it might be an ignitor problem.
This was to create a bit of difficalty for us as the automatics only put the ignitor on during the start sequece and to check the ignitors were working I needed to be able to hear them.Unfortunatly this was imposable over the noise of the APU so it was decided to (after a dry cycle to clear any fuel) to stop the APU during the boost engine start to allow me to go to the back of the aircraft under the engine and do an audable check for the loud "crack" of the ignitors.
All went well the APU was shut down during the boost engine start and I went to the back, the "crack" of the ignitors cofrmed that they were working so I turned arount to walk back to the flight deck to report this fact, just as I reached the bottom of the steps at the mid door there was a very loud WHOOOOOMPH and a sheet of flame higher than the aircrafts tail could be seen reflecting in he glass of the terminal lighting the whole ramp as if is was daylight.
By the time I reached the cockpit the guy with me was starting the APU as he was fully aware of the problem due to the reflection in the glass of the
terminal. Slowly as the APU got up to speed we got the bleed air to the boost engine an continued the start in order to blow the flames out.......... within a what seened like an eternity the engine started and the flames diapeared back insde the jet pipe.
About 30 seconds later 5 or 6 fire engines showed up looking for the aircrft on fire all we said was "just a wet start mate" as we reflected on how near we has come to setting fire to the aircraft!
It is an indication of how far aviation has come to reflect on the post above about the Tridents performance out of CFU on a hot day, now the Boeing 737-800 can lift 189 pax out of CFU on a +35C day and get them back to Gatwick without having to stop and this with the same fuel load as the Trident required to get to Glasgow or Belfast.
This was to create a bit of difficalty for us as the automatics only put the ignitor on during the start sequece and to check the ignitors were working I needed to be able to hear them.Unfortunatly this was imposable over the noise of the APU so it was decided to (after a dry cycle to clear any fuel) to stop the APU during the boost engine start to allow me to go to the back of the aircraft under the engine and do an audable check for the loud "crack" of the ignitors.
All went well the APU was shut down during the boost engine start and I went to the back, the "crack" of the ignitors cofrmed that they were working so I turned arount to walk back to the flight deck to report this fact, just as I reached the bottom of the steps at the mid door there was a very loud WHOOOOOMPH and a sheet of flame higher than the aircrafts tail could be seen reflecting in he glass of the terminal lighting the whole ramp as if is was daylight.
By the time I reached the cockpit the guy with me was starting the APU as he was fully aware of the problem due to the reflection in the glass of the
terminal. Slowly as the APU got up to speed we got the bleed air to the boost engine an continued the start in order to blow the flames out.......... within a what seened like an eternity the engine started and the flames diapeared back insde the jet pipe.
About 30 seconds later 5 or 6 fire engines showed up looking for the aircrft on fire all we said was "just a wet start mate" as we reflected on how near we has come to setting fire to the aircraft!
It is an indication of how far aviation has come to reflect on the post above about the Tridents performance out of CFU on a hot day, now the Boeing 737-800 can lift 189 pax out of CFU on a +35C day and get them back to Gatwick without having to stop and this with the same fuel load as the Trident required to get to Glasgow or Belfast.
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More engines
Posting as SLF here, when I flew to London (various) in the 70's, I was always struck by the difference in takeoff noise between the Trident and a 1-11. I tended to sit up the back (given a choice) 3 or 4 times a month and this thread has brought back some memories. After getting airborne of course the noise subsided... Thank you for explaining it to me - I'm humbled to realise some of the posters here must have flown me there and back (from Turnhouse - old terminal!) 
British airways?
Biggles1049
...forgive the thread drift here but, can anyone tell me why the "airways" as in British airways starts in lower case in your picture?
Cliver029
...forgive the thread drift here but, can anyone tell me why the "airways" as in British airways starts in lower case in your picture?
Cliver029
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Cliver029, the lower case "airways" was presumably simply "design" and I suppose emphasises "British". As you see in Beamender99's pic of 'ZK they dropped "Airways" altogether for a while around 1980, which I recall was a sort of "proud to be British" stance.
But conversely there were those world fins in the 1990s...
But conversely there were those world fins in the 1990s...