Pan Am and its DC8s
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Pan Am and its DC8s
I've picked up a summer 1963 Pan Am timetable to add to my others. An interesting document to flick through. Apart from the German internal services (still all DC6B) there are just one or two prop flights still around.
The timetable, throughout, states that jet services are by 707 or DC8. Pan Am always said this in the 1960s. Now Pan Am by 1963 had 45 707s and 18 DC8s. I would presume that for operational reasons the DC8s, which were slowly sold off through the 1960s, were just kept to one part of the network and not strung all around. But where were they concentrated ? Looking at miscellaneous places they seem based at New York and to be on transatlantic services, in particular to Northern Europe and Scandinavia. Was there a policy ? Did they ever get used to Latin America or across the Pacific, out of the bases at Miami or San Francisco ?
While we are digging at such detail, the Panagra (50% owned by Pan Am)service down the west coast of South America in the 1960s, also shown in the timetable, was a strange arrangement, with National flight numbers New York to Miami, Pan Am from Miami to Panama, and Panagra south of there. The aircraft appears to have operated right through. All three of these operators had DC8s by this time, but whose aircraft were used ? Just Panagra's, or a mixture of the three partners ?
The timetable, throughout, states that jet services are by 707 or DC8. Pan Am always said this in the 1960s. Now Pan Am by 1963 had 45 707s and 18 DC8s. I would presume that for operational reasons the DC8s, which were slowly sold off through the 1960s, were just kept to one part of the network and not strung all around. But where were they concentrated ? Looking at miscellaneous places they seem based at New York and to be on transatlantic services, in particular to Northern Europe and Scandinavia. Was there a policy ? Did they ever get used to Latin America or across the Pacific, out of the bases at Miami or San Francisco ?
While we are digging at such detail, the Panagra (50% owned by Pan Am)service down the west coast of South America in the 1960s, also shown in the timetable, was a strange arrangement, with National flight numbers New York to Miami, Pan Am from Miami to Panama, and Panagra south of there. The aircraft appears to have operated right through. All three of these operators had DC8s by this time, but whose aircraft were used ? Just Panagra's, or a mixture of the three partners ?
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DC-8
Maybe this will help:
"Panagra accepted the plane on April 6, 1960, and it entered service between Buenos Aires and New York on May 2 via an interchange agreement. Panagra operated the DC-8 northbound as far as Panama, where a Pan Am crew took it on to Miami. The Miami-New York sector was flown by National crews."
http://www.dc8cockpit.catisp.com/history.htm
"Panagra accepted the plane on April 6, 1960, and it entered service between Buenos Aires and New York on May 2 via an interchange agreement. Panagra operated the DC-8 northbound as far as Panama, where a Pan Am crew took it on to Miami. The Miami-New York sector was flown by National crews."
http://www.dc8cockpit.catisp.com/history.htm
Thread Starter
I think the situation with National was a bit different. They were given rights to the hitherto nserved route Miami to London starting in 1970, under the noses of Pan Am, but were restricted on capacity, so some days it was a 747 (only widebody available then) and others had to be a DC8. Later they moved on to a daily DC10, which came to the same sort of figure overall.
Pan Am took over National in 1980 and that was when they came into the route.
Regarding Entebbe they were not serving East Africa by 1963 but had started by 1967, routing through Lagos.
Pan Am took over National in 1980 and that was when they came into the route.
Regarding Entebbe they were not serving East Africa by 1963 but had started by 1967, routing through Lagos.
I too remember PanAm DC8s at LHR but it was long time ago and I thought they didnt have 'fanjet' engines as they called the early turbofans. This would have meant the PanAm versions were DC8 -30s so theywere DC8 30s
When National came along I think they were all DC8-50s ( The 30s might have struggled to make LHR-MIA) with their distinctive Yellow and Orange colours and B17 style girls names under the flight deck windows as part of their I 'm Mandy Fly me campaign.
May be wrong of course it was long while ago although LHR had great variety in those days
When National came along I think they were all DC8-50s ( The 30s might have struggled to make LHR-MIA) with their distinctive Yellow and Orange colours and B17 style girls names under the flight deck windows as part of their I 'm Mandy Fly me campaign.
May be wrong of course it was long while ago although LHR had great variety in those days
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I used to spend a lot of time at LHR (or LAP as it was called) in those days. In the mid-1960's Pan American DC8's were always used on the daily Atlanta-Washington-London-Frankfurt PA106/PA107 and often appeared on the daily Detroit-Boston-London as well. From 1967 to 1969 some of their DC-8's were sold to Delta and these aircraft, in full Delta colours, were used on PA106/PA107. The DC-8's could also appear on any other route including the Polar flights from LAX, SFO and SEA. On some days there seemed to be as many DC-8's as 707's visiting LHR. Many flights continued on to FRA, and the trans-Polar flights continued to Paris Orly, which meant that PAA was quite a significant operator in terms of movements. National DC-8's appeared from 1970 onwards.
I also recall seeing piston DC7C's visiting LHR on passenger charters and some freight flights up to 1965.
I also recall seeing piston DC7C's visiting LHR on passenger charters and some freight flights up to 1965.
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I only joined PanAm in DEC 1968, so I missed the DC8 era, but many of my captains had been on the DC8s, and we often talked about their days on that airplane. One thing for sure, the DC8-30s of the 1959-1965 era were all JFK based and operated to Europe. Some were operated towards Panama, Lima and Santiago with the Panagra interchange. The Panagra operation was eventually taken over by Braniff.
xxx
The National DC8-50 flights were primarily MIA-JFK and MIA-LAX flights at the time of the merge in 1980, as well as the DC-10s which were used on flights to LHR. National operations were the start of PanAm's first domestic operations within the USA. But came too late to avoid the eventual demise, as most of the "domestic carriers" were permitted to compete overseas as well.
xxx
Prior to 1980, AA was strictly US domestic carrier (only had YYZ and MEX as "international flights"). As far as United is concerned, their only long range overwater operation was HNL, and no international routes.
Happy contrails
xxx
The National DC8-50 flights were primarily MIA-JFK and MIA-LAX flights at the time of the merge in 1980, as well as the DC-10s which were used on flights to LHR. National operations were the start of PanAm's first domestic operations within the USA. But came too late to avoid the eventual demise, as most of the "domestic carriers" were permitted to compete overseas as well.
xxx
Prior to 1980, AA was strictly US domestic carrier (only had YYZ and MEX as "international flights"). As far as United is concerned, their only long range overwater operation was HNL, and no international routes.
Happy contrails
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In 1967 I was based in Monrovia Liberia served by Pan Am from New York via Dakar to Robertsfield with onwards to ACC/LOS/EBB/NBO/DAR. At that time the flight was operated by DC8 and changed to B707 in late 1968. I recall that in First class on the DC8 there was a semicircular "lounge" where cocktails were served in-flight and you then returned to your seat for the food service.
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Apologies if this is marginally off-thread.
I recall a Pan Am DC8 heading up to the axles or higher into the cabbage patch at the end of LAP/LHR 27R in the early '60s.
Memory says there was a thump/bang just after V1 and the captain decided to stay on the deck and accept a low speed exit into the soft stuff..
They recovered the aircraft to a BOAC hangar (Tech Block A?), where it was checked out and various bits and pieces repaired or replaced over a few weeks.
What those of us who worked in the general area recall is the stench of rotten cabbage. Permeated the area for months.
I recall a Pan Am DC8 heading up to the axles or higher into the cabbage patch at the end of LAP/LHR 27R in the early '60s.
Memory says there was a thump/bang just after V1 and the captain decided to stay on the deck and accept a low speed exit into the soft stuff..
They recovered the aircraft to a BOAC hangar (Tech Block A?), where it was checked out and various bits and pieces repaired or replaced over a few weeks.
What those of us who worked in the general area recall is the stench of rotten cabbage. Permeated the area for months.
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N1803
Here one for you guys...
xxx
In an old log book here (pay purpose) I have logged a flight in 1971.
Deadheading from Rio to Miami. On a DC8-62. PanAm colors.
Had a PA flight number, and cabin crew was PA.
Even recall going to the flight deck to see how these were.
Was interchange flight with a Braniff airplane.
Registry was N1803.
xxxx
Happy contrails
xxx
In an old log book here (pay purpose) I have logged a flight in 1971.
Deadheading from Rio to Miami. On a DC8-62. PanAm colors.
Had a PA flight number, and cabin crew was PA.
Even recall going to the flight deck to see how these were.
Was interchange flight with a Braniff airplane.
Registry was N1803.
xxxx
Happy contrails
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The PanAm might be another incident then. Nov. 1963 and CF-TJM was the Trans Canada DC8. Here's a link:-
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans...Jet/0385405/M/
airsmiles
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans...Jet/0385405/M/
airsmiles
Thread Starter
N1803 was leased from Braniff to Pan Am for 15 months from January 1970 to April 1971, and painted up in Pan Am colours. Pan Am had got rid of its DC8s by then (and they never had the -62 model anyway) so Braniff presumably provided the crew up front, even if Pan Am crewed the cabin.
I don't believe that Braniff did an interchange with Pan Am to Latin America but ran an independent competing operation, and around this time bought out Panagra after a lawsuit between its two owners (Pan Am was one, Grace Shipping was the other). Panagra served the west coast of South America from Miami. My guess is that an aircraft lease for 15 months was somehow part of the deal, the sort of horsetrading that Pan Am excelled in during Juan Trippe's days.
Because of restrictions on who flew where, Panagra had to interchange with National on flights continuing from Miami to New York, and Braniff interchanged with Eastern on the same route.
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Braniff 1803...
Hola WHBM -
xxx
Too long ago to remember - Back then I was a 707 flight engineer, and ended a trip in Rio... had 2 days layover on location, was told to deadhead on a DC8, while my roster was to have operated as F/E on a 707, my captain and F/O deadheaded along with me, and we went to chat in the cockpit with the BN cockpit crew during cruise.... I thought you would be interested of knowing that a DC8-62 was... painted in PanAm colors. As to the specifics of the ACMI/Interchange between PA and BN back then, I have no clues. I was "reserve" in these days, and not normally assigned to So America flights.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Too long ago to remember - Back then I was a 707 flight engineer, and ended a trip in Rio... had 2 days layover on location, was told to deadhead on a DC8, while my roster was to have operated as F/E on a 707, my captain and F/O deadheaded along with me, and we went to chat in the cockpit with the BN cockpit crew during cruise.... I thought you would be interested of knowing that a DC8-62 was... painted in PanAm colors. As to the specifics of the ACMI/Interchange between PA and BN back then, I have no clues. I was "reserve" in these days, and not normally assigned to So America flights.
xxx
Happy contrails
Thread Starter
The Pan Am DC8-62
Just some poking around found this photograph of the Braniff DC8-62 leased to Pan Am.
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.p...261236&nseq=14
When Braniff got it back it was repainted in the Green version of their livery of the time.
Is that you, BelArgUSA I can see peeking out of the back of the flight deck windows ?
http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.p...261236&nseq=14
When Braniff got it back it was repainted in the Green version of their livery of the time.
Is that you, BelArgUSA I can see peeking out of the back of the flight deck windows ?
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WHBM -
xxx
Great picture... (and) for two reasons...
Up front, a rare picture of a PA 720-030B - were my favorite. Rocketships.
Yes you are right, in the DC8 - sorry I am pulling a tongue.
As usual, mischievous me...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Great picture... (and) for two reasons...
Up front, a rare picture of a PA 720-030B - were my favorite. Rocketships.
Yes you are right, in the DC8 - sorry I am pulling a tongue.
As usual, mischievous me...
xxx
Happy contrails
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DL/PA Interchange
The deal was that the US domestic sectors (MSY-ATL-IAD usually though I think this changed a few times with schedule amendments) were flown as Delta flights and the international sectors were flown as Pan Am flights though the same aircraft went right through. The crew changed at IAD but the pax went through on one aircraft and one ticket. In the early 70s DL (and PA I think) 747s were used but replaced with DL DC-10s (leased from UA?) after a while.
A similar arrangement existed between Pan Am and Braniff using PA 707s and 747s and BN DC-8s and 747s, at different times, as far as I can recall. Routing was DFW-ORD-LHR and sometimes on to FRA. I think the LHR-FRA sector was often with a gauge change to a narrowbody 707 and later 727. I am not sure if the BN aircraft ever went on to FRA but I don't think so.
The DL DC-8-30s (ex PA) did and I had the pleasure of flying in one from FRA-LHR on a PA flight in 1970.
A similar arrangement existed between Pan Am and Braniff using PA 707s and 747s and BN DC-8s and 747s, at different times, as far as I can recall. Routing was DFW-ORD-LHR and sometimes on to FRA. I think the LHR-FRA sector was often with a gauge change to a narrowbody 707 and later 727. I am not sure if the BN aircraft ever went on to FRA but I don't think so.
The DL DC-8-30s (ex PA) did and I had the pleasure of flying in one from FRA-LHR on a PA flight in 1970.