Pan Am and its DC8s
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The arrangements for the Interchange flights would alter from time to time. For example by 1973 flight 107 was operating Frankfurt-London-Washington-Atlanta-New Orleans daily. Frankfurt-London-Washington was done on a Pan Am 747 with Pan Am crews, then from Washington to Atlanta the Pan Am 747 continued but primarily under the Delta name with Delta cabin crew, then from Atlanta to New Orleans there was a change to a Delta DC8.
The golden thing to achieve was a listing as "Through Flight" in the OAG. In this case, as you would have to deplane at Washington to go through immigration, then back into the aircraft (sometimes not to the same seat), and then at Atlanta have to get out again and transfer over to wherever the DC8 was, the concept of "through flight" would wear notably thin. This was particularly so if arrival at Atlanta was late and the DC8 had departed, with through pax being fitted in to the remaining flights of the day !
These arrangements were conceptually similar to those you get in other areas of transport such as railways across borders or even bus services between towns, that there is an agreement between the two parties that each will perform some agreed share of a joint operation, often defined as proportions of the overall mileage. Because things don't readily balance out day by day you then end up changing things around periodically (say a couple of times per year) to make the balance correct long-term.
I recall Northwest 707s, Delta DC8s and 747s at Heathrow in the early 1970s. There are several shots of them all on Airliners.net.
The golden thing to achieve was a listing as "Through Flight" in the OAG. In this case, as you would have to deplane at Washington to go through immigration, then back into the aircraft (sometimes not to the same seat), and then at Atlanta have to get out again and transfer over to wherever the DC8 was, the concept of "through flight" would wear notably thin. This was particularly so if arrival at Atlanta was late and the DC8 had departed, with through pax being fitted in to the remaining flights of the day !
These arrangements were conceptually similar to those you get in other areas of transport such as railways across borders or even bus services between towns, that there is an agreement between the two parties that each will perform some agreed share of a joint operation, often defined as proportions of the overall mileage. Because things don't readily balance out day by day you then end up changing things around periodically (say a couple of times per year) to make the balance correct long-term.
I recall Northwest 707s, Delta DC8s and 747s at Heathrow in the early 1970s. There are several shots of them all on Airliners.net.
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Northwest Orient/Pan Am Interchange
Just a little off thread here but I seem to recall Northwest widebodies on their Pan Am interchange flights in about 1972. Was it DC-10s or 747s or am I getting confused? Routing varied like the other interchanges but I am fairly sure it was MSP-DTW-LHR-AMS for some of the time. I can't find anything on the net that confirms this. There is a nice B&W pic of a NW 707 at LHR at http://www.airliners.net/photo/North...v_id=&next_id= though - landing on 05, no less.
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A similar arrangement existed between Pan Am and Braniff using PA 707s and 747s and BN DC-8s and 747s, at different times, as far as I can recall. Routing was DFW-ORD-LHR and sometimes on to FRA. I think the LHR-FRA sector was often with a gauge change to a narrowbody 707 and later 727. I am not sure if the BN aircraft ever went on to FRA but I don't think so.
Braniff didn't appear in the UK until Big Orange started LGW service in 1978.
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Makes The Going Great
To widen the topic a little: Pan Am was the greatest airline ever. Why did the US Government allow it to go into bankruptcy? It was the USA's second most-stupid decision (the invasion of Iraq being the first).
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AP: Why... The first hefty carrier to face re-organisation, under wind of market change, when the game of manipulation of Chapter 11 had not yet been crafted. Bush Snr. felt he had no choice, no course that would not be protested by domestic carriers seeking international routes. Deregulation from 1978 subjected domestic air transport to open market forces - demise of Govt. route designation/monopoly. No Republican could object to that. PanAm could have stayed an overseas carrier, but chose to acquire interior feed to its gateways. That's a different business; only TW and NW had been successful at both. When domestic carriers ventured overseas from 1980 they had the same lesson in reverse, contributing to the demise of Braniff, Eastern, National. AA/CO/DL/UA survived the shock by exploiting The National Interest to massage the Chapter 11 and Federal Pension Guaranty systems.
(I don't know why TW did, then did not cope. NW Orient monopolised Japan: 1980s' value of their downtown Tokyo freehold was > their entire fleet equity).
(I don't know why TW did, then did not cope. NW Orient monopolised Japan: 1980s' value of their downtown Tokyo freehold was > their entire fleet equity).
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A damned shame
It's a pity that Pan Am didn't decide to become a purely international airline, because that's where it made its name. It's difficult to think of anything in modern-day international air travel that wasn't first done by Pan Am.
The Pan Am heritage goes back for decades. Here in Auckland, New Zealand, right out at the end of nowhere, we have a headland called Musick Point. It was named after a Pam Am captain.
The Pan Am heritage goes back for decades. Here in Auckland, New Zealand, right out at the end of nowhere, we have a headland called Musick Point. It was named after a Pam Am captain.
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national airlines
g/day all.how long did national fly from mia to lhr before they were taken over by pan am .i seem to remember 10cc making a hit song out off their advert.
Thread Starter
National started their daily route from Miami to London Heathrow in June 1970, which they operated on their own for 10 years until they were taken over by Pan Am towards the end of 1980 (post #5 above).
They did a lot of small-scale advertising in the UK; down in one corner of the front page of The Times I recall was a regular spot for them, and it used to feature a small photograph of one of the girls names on the nose of a 747, later a DC-10 (you see, even from those days I can remember the airframe type but not the individual girls' names !). I don't recall a DC8 featuring, to come back to this topic. The 10cc song was "I'm Mandy, Fly Me", issued in 1976.
http://www.metrolyrics.com/im-mandy-...ics-10-cc.html
They did a lot of small-scale advertising in the UK; down in one corner of the front page of The Times I recall was a regular spot for them, and it used to feature a small photograph of one of the girls names on the nose of a 747, later a DC-10 (you see, even from those days I can remember the airframe type but not the individual girls' names !). I don't recall a DC8 featuring, to come back to this topic. The 10cc song was "I'm Mandy, Fly Me", issued in 1976.
http://www.metrolyrics.com/im-mandy-...ics-10-cc.html
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NA DC-8s
National commenced operations to LHR in 1970 with 2 DC-8-54 aircraft N108RD and N109RD that were used exclusively on the MIA-LHR route due to their range - though they occasionally needed a top up in Bermuda westbound (and often used it as an en route alternate) especially if fully loaded and unable to run full tanks ex LHR due to weight.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Natio...Jet/0593606/L/
My memory is that they replaced them with DC-10-30s (in about late 1971?) and then stepped up to 747s for a while (National's only 74s) before reverting to the 10s a few years later when they disposed of the Boeings.
Interestingly, PanAm (despite being miffed at not getting the MIA-LHR route) provided all the ground handling for NA at Heathrow (NA only had a handful of staff at the airport for their one a day flights) so there weren't too many commercial secrets.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Natio...Jet/0593606/L/
My memory is that they replaced them with DC-10-30s (in about late 1971?) and then stepped up to 747s for a while (National's only 74s) before reverting to the 10s a few years later when they disposed of the Boeings.
Interestingly, PanAm (despite being miffed at not getting the MIA-LHR route) provided all the ground handling for NA at Heathrow (NA only had a handful of staff at the airport for their one a day flights) so there weren't too many commercial secrets.
Thread Starter
Those two DC8s that National started service to London with in June 1970 were DC8-54F models leased from Airlift, a Miami charter/freight operator (whose flight designator was RD from when they were called Riddle Airlines, hence the registrations). They were quite early models, having been built n 1963-4. National had a sizeable DC8 fleet but didn't have any intercontinental-capable ones. They were returned to Airlift in 1973-4. They wee only leased as National had widebodies on order.
They were partially replaced by 747s by the end of 1970 but due to capacity restrictions it couldn't be a complete changeover, plus the business was not built up yet. The service remained mixed 747/DC8 for some years.
The first intercontinental DC10-30s of National came in June 1973 and that was the end of their DC8s in London. The capacity restriction was still there but a daily DC10 just fitted in.
Pan Am picked up a lot of connecting traffic from the Miami flight down to the Caribbean and Latin America from this flight. In those days things were a little different, the competiion was right at the beginning for who got the route authority (which I seem to recall in 1970 was a Presidential prerogative, so it would have been Nixon's team who awarded it to National and not Pan Am). My guess is tha National were as surprised to beawarded it as anybody. Once the carrier was decided there was nothing to be done other than work together. Pan Am couldn't offer any alternative as they couldn't do connections through New York either. The two airlines had a long tradition of working together for connections from National's US points down through Miami to Pan Am's international points. It was part of why Pan Am bought National 10 years later.
They were partially replaced by 747s by the end of 1970 but due to capacity restrictions it couldn't be a complete changeover, plus the business was not built up yet. The service remained mixed 747/DC8 for some years.
The first intercontinental DC10-30s of National came in June 1973 and that was the end of their DC8s in London. The capacity restriction was still there but a daily DC10 just fitted in.
Pan Am picked up a lot of connecting traffic from the Miami flight down to the Caribbean and Latin America from this flight. In those days things were a little different, the competiion was right at the beginning for who got the route authority (which I seem to recall in 1970 was a Presidential prerogative, so it would have been Nixon's team who awarded it to National and not Pan Am). My guess is tha National were as surprised to beawarded it as anybody. Once the carrier was decided there was nothing to be done other than work together. Pan Am couldn't offer any alternative as they couldn't do connections through New York either. The two airlines had a long tradition of working together for connections from National's US points down through Miami to Pan Am's international points. It was part of why Pan Am bought National 10 years later.
