Aer Lingus Viscount accident--off Strumble
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ireland
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Panop,
I heard that broadcast on RTE and it all seemed plausible until I heard one of the witnesses say the plane flew so low that he could see the pax through the windows. Hmmm ...
BTW, that radio report was prepared by Phillip Boucher Hayes who caused a major stir when he produced what he thought was a major scoop by declaring on radio that BEA was still flying the Q400 after they had been grounded. It was a piece of very lazy journalism and he obviously never bothered to read the official grounding order which was to ground the aircraft until the undercarriage had been inspected for corrosion. The obvious sequel was, if there was no corrosion, the aircraft could immediately fly again ... but why let the facts get in the way of a good story.
I heard that broadcast on RTE and it all seemed plausible until I heard one of the witnesses say the plane flew so low that he could see the pax through the windows. Hmmm ...
BTW, that radio report was prepared by Phillip Boucher Hayes who caused a major stir when he produced what he thought was a major scoop by declaring on radio that BEA was still flying the Q400 after they had been grounded. It was a piece of very lazy journalism and he obviously never bothered to read the official grounding order which was to ground the aircraft until the undercarriage had been inspected for corrosion. The obvious sequel was, if there was no corrosion, the aircraft could immediately fly again ... but why let the facts get in the way of a good story.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
In a statement to the AAIU that same person also said that he saw, on the afternoon of the crash, an eighty foot length of aircraft fuselage floating 3 miles S.W. of the Saltee Islands. He was standing in Slade (Height of eye 30ft) at the time, some 11 miles from the object. Sighting such an object with H.E. 30ft and distance 11 miles would be impossible when one takes into account the curvature of the earth. In addition no other witness came forward to corroborate any of his testimony. Finally he also said that he took a photograph of this object with an ordinary family portrait type camera and gave it as a slide to the AAIU.....but the AAIU mislaid it (He said).
Its extraordinary that the ATC officer in Shannon on duty that morning was not believed by the International Team, who published the 2002 Study, yet the evidence of the chap mentioned above was.
Its extraordinary that the ATC officer in Shannon on duty that morning was not believed by the International Team, who published the 2002 Study, yet the evidence of the chap mentioned above was.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EI-AOM
One point that was made a lot of in the RTE programme was that in the aircraft's (or someone's) call to London Control the callsign EI-AOM was used rather than the flight number. I am fairly sure that Aer Lingus had only recently then changed from using registrations to flight numbers as callsigns so it is possible that in a moment of confusion or an emergency they reverted to the more familiar callsign.
It was also suggested that the voice in that call was not that of either of the flight deck crew. I have not read as widely on this subject as many of the others here but has the possibility of crew incapacitation and consequent (or even incapacitation subsequent to) loss of control ever been canvassed? This could explain a 'strange' voice and the use of the registration rather than the flight number if another person was working the radio.
Or (and this is a great leap of the imagination, I know), has the possibility of unauthorised entry to the cockpit and some form of piracy been considered, with loss of control resulting?
Either of these suggestions would, at least, explain why r/t was apparently normal up until that final call - which seems to me to rule out some of the other theories put forward.
As I said, I have not studied this incident in the detail that other contributors have so I will not be at all upset if any or all of the above is shown to be totally incorrect or impossible - just my two bob's worth.
It was also suggested that the voice in that call was not that of either of the flight deck crew. I have not read as widely on this subject as many of the others here but has the possibility of crew incapacitation and consequent (or even incapacitation subsequent to) loss of control ever been canvassed? This could explain a 'strange' voice and the use of the registration rather than the flight number if another person was working the radio.
Or (and this is a great leap of the imagination, I know), has the possibility of unauthorised entry to the cockpit and some form of piracy been considered, with loss of control resulting?
Either of these suggestions would, at least, explain why r/t was apparently normal up until that final call - which seems to me to rule out some of the other theories put forward.
As I said, I have not studied this incident in the detail that other contributors have so I will not be at all upset if any or all of the above is shown to be totally incorrect or impossible - just my two bob's worth.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Ireland
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The various investigations lacked three things which most air accident sleuths would say is almost essential to solving a crash mystery.
1. No FDR
2. No CVR
3. Very little wreckage.
There is a fourth, a surviving cockpit crew member but given there were no survivors whatsoever, I think that crash must forever remain a mystery.
1. No FDR
2. No CVR
3. Very little wreckage.
There is a fourth, a surviving cockpit crew member but given there were no survivors whatsoever, I think that crash must forever remain a mystery.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
Panop
The voices who spoke the two messages," EIAOM with you" and "5000ft descending spinning rapidly" intercepted by London Airways have never been identified. Some very experienced aviators have said that the "EIAOM with you" message actually came from another aircraft which was closing with the Viscount. In the 1970 Investigation 4 witnesses are mentioned as having seen an aircraft "with very red colour on wings and tail". The colour of this aircraft was "not green or white". This Investigation also concludes, on page18 para 2.1.4.10. "that there was such another aircraft in the area is inescapable". The 2002 Study carried out some 30 years after the crash concluded that there was no other aircraft in the vicinity except the Viscount.
The voices who spoke the two messages," EIAOM with you" and "5000ft descending spinning rapidly" intercepted by London Airways have never been identified. Some very experienced aviators have said that the "EIAOM with you" message actually came from another aircraft which was closing with the Viscount. In the 1970 Investigation 4 witnesses are mentioned as having seen an aircraft "with very red colour on wings and tail". The colour of this aircraft was "not green or white". This Investigation also concludes, on page18 para 2.1.4.10. "that there was such another aircraft in the area is inescapable". The 2002 Study carried out some 30 years after the crash concluded that there was no other aircraft in the vicinity except the Viscount.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: eidw
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Panop
Correct ! For european flights Aer Lingus had used aircraft registration as
radiotelephony callsign until 1967 or perhaps early 1968 when the change
to FNC was made. However, for atlantic flights which were then operated
by "Aerlinte" (remember that fiddle?) the ICAO designator "Shamrock" plus
flight number was/still is used. Capt O'Beirne had been a B720/B707 F/O
until perhaps '66 or '67 and so would have encountered two recent changes in callsign format. Initial contact with London by saying "EIAOM
with you" while not standard RTF phraseology was common and similar
transmissions can be heard today!
Incidentally about 20 years ago Aer Lingus decided to drown the Shamrock and use "Aer Lingus" plus flight number as callsign for
ALL flights. After a few months use and confusion with Gander Radio
and Kennedy Tower the decision was reversed ( it was right at the
time !!! ). Shamrock plus flt number was then adopted for ALL flights.
A few years ago Shamrock plus alpha-numeric callsigns changing one
digit of the flt number were invented. The law of unintended consequences was then consulted!
radiotelephony callsign until 1967 or perhaps early 1968 when the change
to FNC was made. However, for atlantic flights which were then operated
by "Aerlinte" (remember that fiddle?) the ICAO designator "Shamrock" plus
flight number was/still is used. Capt O'Beirne had been a B720/B707 F/O
until perhaps '66 or '67 and so would have encountered two recent changes in callsign format. Initial contact with London by saying "EIAOM
with you" while not standard RTF phraseology was common and similar
transmissions can be heard today!
Incidentally about 20 years ago Aer Lingus decided to drown the Shamrock and use "Aer Lingus" plus flight number as callsign for
ALL flights. After a few months use and confusion with Gander Radio
and Kennedy Tower the decision was reversed ( it was right at the
time !!! ). Shamrock plus flt number was then adopted for ALL flights.
A few years ago Shamrock plus alpha-numeric callsigns changing one
digit of the flt number were invented. The law of unintended consequences was then consulted!
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
13370khz
During the investigation in 1970 it was never definitively stated or proven that the voice heard was either that of the Captain or Co-Pilot. The only evidence on file is a hand written note to state "voice not Captain O'Beirne".....the above is an extract from the Review of Irish and UK Files published in 2002.
During the investigation in 1970 it was never definitively stated or proven that the voice heard was either that of the Captain or Co-Pilot. The only evidence on file is a hand written note to state "voice not Captain O'Beirne".....the above is an extract from the Review of Irish and UK Files published in 2002.
Last edited by 383656; 6th Mar 2008 at 16:10. Reason: Incorrect year
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
13370khz.
From the Review Page 64
"The only physical tape recording of the R/T of the St. Phelim and the ATC unit, located during this review, contains the last transmission of the St. Phelim to London ATC on frequency 131.2 Mhz with the message “descending spinning rapidly” thereon.
The actual tapes of the exchanges between the St. Phelim and the Irish ATC units have not been located by this review.
During the investigation in 1968 it was never definitively stated or proven that the voice heard was either that of the Captain or Co-Pilot. The only
evidence on file is a hand written note to state “voice not Captain O’Beirne” . It was therefore assumed that the voice heard was that of the co-pilot, First Officer Heffernan."
From the Review Page 37 Annex L
“It is our understanding that the voice was not Capt. O’Beirne’s. This was stated by one of his contemporaries. I have no idea who identified F/O Heffernans voice. I intend to have the recording played in Farnborough in the presence of an Aer Lingus pilot who was both his school pal and contemporary in Aer Lingus. "
Ref page 14 of Annex A of Volume 2 Tome 2 it is noted that the former Aer Lingus captain " listened to the distress message of EI-AOM."
Is this entry referring to the "EI-AOM..." or to the "descending spinning..."
message ?.
Do you not think it most unusual that the voices who uttered the two message intercepted by London Airways were not identified within days of the crash.?
From the Review Page 64
"The only physical tape recording of the R/T of the St. Phelim and the ATC unit, located during this review, contains the last transmission of the St. Phelim to London ATC on frequency 131.2 Mhz with the message “descending spinning rapidly” thereon.
The actual tapes of the exchanges between the St. Phelim and the Irish ATC units have not been located by this review.
During the investigation in 1968 it was never definitively stated or proven that the voice heard was either that of the Captain or Co-Pilot. The only
evidence on file is a hand written note to state “voice not Captain O’Beirne” . It was therefore assumed that the voice heard was that of the co-pilot, First Officer Heffernan."
From the Review Page 37 Annex L
“It is our understanding that the voice was not Capt. O’Beirne’s. This was stated by one of his contemporaries. I have no idea who identified F/O Heffernans voice. I intend to have the recording played in Farnborough in the presence of an Aer Lingus pilot who was both his school pal and contemporary in Aer Lingus. "
Ref page 14 of Annex A of Volume 2 Tome 2 it is noted that the former Aer Lingus captain " listened to the distress message of EI-AOM."
Is this entry referring to the "EI-AOM..." or to the "descending spinning..."
message ?.
Do you not think it most unusual that the voices who uttered the two message intercepted by London Airways were not identified within days of the crash.?
Last edited by 383656; 7th Mar 2008 at 08:27.
Owwch !! No need to shout.
Has the erm.... 'Battle Of The Fonts' commenced.... ?
(Font now corrected
)
Has the erm.... 'Battle Of The Fonts' commenced.... ?
(Font now corrected
)
Last edited by DH106; 7th Mar 2008 at 09:41. Reason: Font corrected by 383656
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
My ability with this thing is limited....typed using small font but then these giants appeared....how does one change the font size please ?.
383656
All ok again
383656
All ok again
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: eidw
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
383656
No, I dont think it was unusual. The "....descending, spinning message..."
was initially thought to start with "five thousand feet, descending....."
but was subsequently thought to be more likely "twelve thousand......"
That indicates transmission was of poor radio readablilty leading to
difficulty in identifying the voice. Neither do I think it unusual that the
former captain should identify the voice after more than 30 years. He
may not have heard the tape previously?
BTW the 1983 book "Tradegy at Tuskar Rock" was reviewed in Irish Times
by an acknowledged expert soon after publication. Book was discredited.
The second book "Tradegy at Tuskar Rock" was based on the 2000 investigation. Irish Air Letter, No. 328, April 2002 contains an excellent
review of that report and rejects its conclusions. Well worth a read!
Please leave me out of the Fonts War.
was initially thought to start with "five thousand feet, descending....."
but was subsequently thought to be more likely "twelve thousand......"
That indicates transmission was of poor radio readablilty leading to
difficulty in identifying the voice. Neither do I think it unusual that the
former captain should identify the voice after more than 30 years. He
may not have heard the tape previously?
BTW the 1983 book "Tradegy at Tuskar Rock" was reviewed in Irish Times
by an acknowledged expert soon after publication. Book was discredited.
The second book "Tradegy at Tuskar Rock" was based on the 2000 investigation. Irish Air Letter, No. 328, April 2002 contains an excellent
review of that report and rejects its conclusions. Well worth a read!
Please leave me out of the Fonts War.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
13370khz
Is the Irish Times review readily available ?. You mentioned Irish Air Letter No. 328 April 2002. As the second book was published in 2003, did No. 328 refer to the Study published in Nov. 2001 and is it available for perusal.
Received IAL No. 328 from editor PM this date
Is the Irish Times review readily available ?. You mentioned Irish Air Letter No. 328 April 2002. As the second book was published in 2003, did No. 328 refer to the Study published in Nov. 2001 and is it available for perusal.
Received IAL No. 328 from editor PM this date
Last edited by 383656; 10th Mar 2008 at 19:40. Reason: Updating
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
13370khz
Ref. IAL 328
If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and sounds like a duck it is a duck.
I refer to the 4 witnesses who testified to the 1970 Investigation, that they saw an aeroplane after Mass (Mass over at 10.40) and before dinner (dinner at 11.30-12.00) with very red colour on wings and tail.(times G.M.T.). They also testified that the aeroplane was not green or white. The Investigation also noted that the times of the observations can be taken "as reasonably accurate because it being Sunday the events of Mass ending and the middle of the day dinner being placed on the table are of great regularity throughout the population ".
Other witnesses also testified as hearing a "loud whoosh" and "a loud boom like a jet coming out of a cloud" . Surely what these witnesses observed was a "duck" and not the Dove which arrived on scene at around 14.00. However the three wize men plus one thought differently.
Ref. IAL 328
If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and sounds like a duck it is a duck.
I refer to the 4 witnesses who testified to the 1970 Investigation, that they saw an aeroplane after Mass (Mass over at 10.40) and before dinner (dinner at 11.30-12.00) with very red colour on wings and tail.(times G.M.T.). They also testified that the aeroplane was not green or white. The Investigation also noted that the times of the observations can be taken "as reasonably accurate because it being Sunday the events of Mass ending and the middle of the day dinner being placed on the table are of great regularity throughout the population ".
Other witnesses also testified as hearing a "loud whoosh" and "a loud boom like a jet coming out of a cloud" . Surely what these witnesses observed was a "duck" and not the Dove which arrived on scene at around 14.00. However the three wize men plus one thought differently.
383656
I must have missed something & I'm trying to follow what you're perhaps alluding to. The "red, but not green nor white" aircraft isn't the Viscount nor the Dove, so perhaps a 3rd aircraft...... collision & conspiracy?
I must have missed something & I'm trying to follow what you're perhaps alluding to. The "red, but not green nor white" aircraft isn't the Viscount nor the Dove, so perhaps a 3rd aircraft...... collision & conspiracy?
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
DH106.
Thread number 50 posted on the 1st March might explain your query. The 1970 Investigation interviewed witnesses immediately after the crash and came to the conclusion that "there was such another aircraft in the area is inescapable". The Study carried out some 30 years after the crash dismissed this conclusion.
Thread number 50 posted on the 1st March might explain your query. The 1970 Investigation interviewed witnesses immediately after the crash and came to the conclusion that "there was such another aircraft in the area is inescapable". The Study carried out some 30 years after the crash dismissed this conclusion.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Cork
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
The AAIU should not have had sole access to investigating the crash . As soon as it was determined that another aircraft was in the vicinity the Gardai should have been alerted to the possibility of a crime having been committed. The question has to be asked why were'nt they called in, after all 61 died and the second aircraft whose presence was "inescapable" could have been responsible for causing the crash. The 1970 Investigation alludes to this possibility on page 20 under para 2.2.1. " There is evidence which could be construed as indicative of the possible presence of another aircraft or airborne object in the vicinity, which by reason of collision, or by its proximity causing an evasive manoeuvre to be made, or by its wake turbulence, might have been the initiating cause of an upsetting manoeuvre resulting in the Viscount entering a spin or spiral dive"
Is it too late now to have the G.S open the case and attempt to determine the identity ofthis aircraft ?
If a similar accident happened today (God forbid) there is no doubt but that the AAIU would call in the G.S.
Is it too late now to have the G.S open the case and attempt to determine the identity ofthis aircraft ?
If a similar accident happened today (God forbid) there is no doubt but that the AAIU would call in the G.S.
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Viscount Crash
13370khz or anybody else.
Ref page 14 of Annex A of Volume 2 Tome 2 it is noted that the former Aer Lingus captain " listened to the distress message of EI-AOM."
Is this entry referring to the "EI-AOM..." or to the "5000ft descending spinning..." message or both ?. Is it possible that two different voices were heard ?.
Ref page 14 of Annex A of Volume 2 Tome 2 it is noted that the former Aer Lingus captain " listened to the distress message of EI-AOM."
Is this entry referring to the "EI-AOM..." or to the "5000ft descending spinning..." message or both ?. Is it possible that two different voices were heard ?.
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Somerset
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's a reply from AAIU in answer to a recent query.
"The AAIU operates a 7day 24hour call-out service and investigates accidents and incidents specifically,as you say,to prevent reoccurence.We are expressly prohibited from attributing either blame or liability by our legislation.Please note that many occurances do not involve either blame or liability.
Following notification of an accident,an AAIU Inspector is immediately dispatched to the site.AAIU proceedures require that if the Inspector finds any evidence of criminality at an accident/incident site,or during an investigation,then the Gardai or appropriate authority is immediately called in.In the case of the Gardai,they would then take charge of the investigation with the AAIU assisting them as required.Otherwise the investigation is conducted by the AAIU."
Following notification of an accident,an AAIU Inspector is immediately dispatched to the site.AAIU proceedures require that if the Inspector finds any evidence of criminality at an accident/incident site,or during an investigation,then the Gardai or appropriate authority is immediately called in.In the case of the Gardai,they would then take charge of the investigation with the AAIU assisting them as required.Otherwise the investigation is conducted by the AAIU."
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Cobh Co Cork
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
40th Anniversary of Viscount Crash
Let us remember those who died 40 years ago on board Aer Lingus Viscount St. Phelim
On the 24th of March 1968 Aer Lingus Viscount Saint Phelim, Registration Letters EI-AOM , Flight Number 712 took off from Cork Airport at 10.32 G.M.T. on flight to London. At 11.15 G.M.T. she crashed 1.9 miles east of Tuskar Rock. All 4 crew members and 57 passengers perished. The following are their names:
Katherine Archer, Dennis Arnold, Roger Baeck, Hans Beck, Elizebeth Bryan, Hannah Burke,
Mary Coughlan, Michael Cowhig, William Cox-Ife, Jacques Creyelman, Sheila Dann, Teresa Dann,
Rory Delaney, Pierre Dreyfus , Thomas Dwane, Edmund Faveurs, Karin Gahlin, Sven Gahlin,
Eileen Gallivan, Marion Gallivan, Paula Gallivan, Joseph Ganglehoff, Mary Ganglehoff, Paul Heffernan, Edward Hegarty, Maura Herlihy, Max Hinderer, Eileen Jephson, Maurice Jephson, Theordor Jurgens,
Ann Kelly, Anthony Long, Curt Meyer, Noel Mulcahy, Christopher McCarthy, Jeremiah McCarthy,
Rita McCarthy, Neill McCormick, Dorthy Newey, Richard Nunan, John Nyhan, Barney O’Beirne,
Edward O’Brien, Bridget O’Callaghan, Patrick O’Callaghan, James O’Halloran, Josephine O’Halloran, Nora O’Mahony, Barney O’Rourke, Nellie Quinlan, Paul Schwartz, Ann Shorten, Thomas Shorten,
Ruth Sless, Albert Spleleers, Marcel Vastenavondt, Madeleine Waeckerling, Roland Waeckerling,
Desmond Walls, Rudolf Weiss, Ernest Zimmerman
On the 24th of March 1968 Aer Lingus Viscount Saint Phelim, Registration Letters EI-AOM , Flight Number 712 took off from Cork Airport at 10.32 G.M.T. on flight to London. At 11.15 G.M.T. she crashed 1.9 miles east of Tuskar Rock. All 4 crew members and 57 passengers perished. The following are their names:
Katherine Archer, Dennis Arnold, Roger Baeck, Hans Beck, Elizebeth Bryan, Hannah Burke,
Mary Coughlan, Michael Cowhig, William Cox-Ife, Jacques Creyelman, Sheila Dann, Teresa Dann,
Rory Delaney, Pierre Dreyfus , Thomas Dwane, Edmund Faveurs, Karin Gahlin, Sven Gahlin,
Eileen Gallivan, Marion Gallivan, Paula Gallivan, Joseph Ganglehoff, Mary Ganglehoff, Paul Heffernan, Edward Hegarty, Maura Herlihy, Max Hinderer, Eileen Jephson, Maurice Jephson, Theordor Jurgens,
Ann Kelly, Anthony Long, Curt Meyer, Noel Mulcahy, Christopher McCarthy, Jeremiah McCarthy,
Rita McCarthy, Neill McCormick, Dorthy Newey, Richard Nunan, John Nyhan, Barney O’Beirne,
Edward O’Brien, Bridget O’Callaghan, Patrick O’Callaghan, James O’Halloran, Josephine O’Halloran, Nora O’Mahony, Barney O’Rourke, Nellie Quinlan, Paul Schwartz, Ann Shorten, Thomas Shorten,
Ruth Sless, Albert Spleleers, Marcel Vastenavondt, Madeleine Waeckerling, Roland Waeckerling,
Desmond Walls, Rudolf Weiss, Ernest Zimmerman