High Octane Petrol
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High Octane Petrol
Dear me,
Blue of course. This was the Royal Air Force run by little boys with 6 weeks training whilst the rest were on Operation Plainfare- the Berlin Airlift -to lesser mortals.
Having a little 'knock'- with tetra ethyl lead, but of course!
Blue of course. This was the Royal Air Force run by little boys with 6 weeks training whilst the rest were on Operation Plainfare- the Berlin Airlift -to lesser mortals.
Having a little 'knock'- with tetra ethyl lead, but of course!
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Was/is 100 octane always tinted green and does it always contain lead?
Original 100/130, yes green color, the now popular 100LL is blue/green.
Both contain tetraethyl lead, but 100LL has less.
And, for those that might ask the next question, yes, 100LL can be substituted for 100/130...however, for example, if 100LL is used in a P&W CB engine, it should be used with ADI (at 2800 RPM) otherwise CHT's get a tad warm in warmer climates, during takeoff.
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High Octane Petrol
100 octane- the stuff that won the Battle of Britain was blue/blue as in blue.
Recall that the US hadn't a decent inline engine to run on anything until it got the Merlin---- running on blue petrol.
Why don't you lot give in and accept what is fact?
87 Octane for the rest and blue 100 for the Merlins and later Griffons.
You know there there must be precious few of you who ever saw two squadrons of Spits take off together- with a spare flight in reserve!
Kid, I might have been but we still have a Merlin and Griffon engine 'basher' in the 31 Squadron Association.
Recall that the US hadn't a decent inline engine to run on anything until it got the Merlin---- running on blue petrol.
Why don't you lot give in and accept what is fact?
87 Octane for the rest and blue 100 for the Merlins and later Griffons.
You know there there must be precious few of you who ever saw two squadrons of Spits take off together- with a spare flight in reserve!
Kid, I might have been but we still have a Merlin and Griffon engine 'basher' in the 31 Squadron Association.
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80/87 fuel never allowed.
As I said, it was a real long time ago. I'm just real proud that I even remembered the type of engines it had.
Thanks 411A
(Now, could one burn 80/87 in the 1830 on the DC-3? Forgot that as well.)
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You know there there must be precious few of you who ever saw two squadrons of Spits take off together- with a spare flight in reserve!
Not especially impressive when B-36's were about in my time...1950's....not forgetting of course that the P51 could fly rings around a Spitfire, at a greater distance.
And, as for 100 octane being blue/blue (as in blue)...could well have been a Brit thing, as we all know they like to do things differently, warm beer being an example.
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100/130, 100LL, 115/145 etc
All AVGAS and all with TEL. Only real difference is how much TEL.
100/130 contained approximately 3 grams of TEL per gallon, coloured green.
100LL (or low-lead) contains approximately 2 grams per gallon but is still rated as 100 octane fully week mixture and 130 octane fully rich mixture. Therefore, 100LL is considered to be a 100/130 octane fuel, coloured blue.
115/145 had a lot of TEL, in excess of 5 grams per gallon (IIRC). I can remember using this stuff in Keflavik because it was all they had. Coloured dark blue. Then, they did away with it and only had 100/130. The local DC6 Crewchief was gobsmacked when I told him 'No, we don't have any problems on 100/130.* That is what Messrs Rolls-Royce had designed the good ole Griffon to run on'. The reason he was gobsmacked is they had a maximium manifold pressure approximately 20 inches of Mercury less than ours (62" IIRC compared to our 81") and they had to detune their R2800's and remove some seats as well to run on 100/130. Not long after, they had the DC6 replaced with a P3A.
150 octane was a WWII special fuel for high altitude, high speed aircraft, and may have been one of Mr Banks' concoctions (he of S6B/Rolls-Royce 'R' special fuel brew fame).
Seem to remember someone who was old enough telling me that the UK was restricted to 80/87 fuel until the US of A supplied 100+ octane fuel on the Atlantic convoys. Comments anyone?
* Although we didn't have any problems on 115/145, we did have to bring the engines up to 2600 RPM for two minutes every hour to ensure clearing of the excess lead off the plugs.
camlobe
100/130 contained approximately 3 grams of TEL per gallon, coloured green.
100LL (or low-lead) contains approximately 2 grams per gallon but is still rated as 100 octane fully week mixture and 130 octane fully rich mixture. Therefore, 100LL is considered to be a 100/130 octane fuel, coloured blue.
115/145 had a lot of TEL, in excess of 5 grams per gallon (IIRC). I can remember using this stuff in Keflavik because it was all they had. Coloured dark blue. Then, they did away with it and only had 100/130. The local DC6 Crewchief was gobsmacked when I told him 'No, we don't have any problems on 100/130.* That is what Messrs Rolls-Royce had designed the good ole Griffon to run on'. The reason he was gobsmacked is they had a maximium manifold pressure approximately 20 inches of Mercury less than ours (62" IIRC compared to our 81") and they had to detune their R2800's and remove some seats as well to run on 100/130. Not long after, they had the DC6 replaced with a P3A.
150 octane was a WWII special fuel for high altitude, high speed aircraft, and may have been one of Mr Banks' concoctions (he of S6B/Rolls-Royce 'R' special fuel brew fame).
Seem to remember someone who was old enough telling me that the UK was restricted to 80/87 fuel until the US of A supplied 100+ octane fuel on the Atlantic convoys. Comments anyone?
* Although we didn't have any problems on 115/145, we did have to bring the engines up to 2600 RPM for two minutes every hour to ensure clearing of the excess lead off the plugs.
camlobe
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High Octane Petrol
Now the Supermarine S6B???? Ah, Mike, should I tell him that Boothman flew a Spitfire. With 100 octane, but of course! Air Vice Marshall Sir John Boothman- at RAF Hendon. Used to fly Jimmy Robbs kite and Arthur Fane de Salis OBE was RAF 31 Squadron's Commander and OC Flying Wing, RAF Hendon.
And me old mate, John was the 'engine basher' to B Flight
Buggered his plastic hip just recently- but has gone on to write some of Hendon's History------- with - well, modesty forbids!
And me old mate, John was the 'engine basher' to B Flight
Buggered his plastic hip just recently- but has gone on to write some of Hendon's History------- with - well, modesty forbids!
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High Octane Petrol
Waiting for Airport arrivals- so a test of Aviation knowledge.
What has a P-51 Mustang got to do with the Queen's Flight?
In fact, there are two P-51's but these would really make too many rings.
What has a P-51 Mustang got to do with the Queen's Flight?
In fact, there are two P-51's but these would really make too many rings.
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Mike 7777777
Still no evidence from 411A!
Perhaps he's just remembered that the P51 was designed by North American to British order. Still wasn't any good until the British fitted it with a British engine. After all this British influence it finally turned out to be a darn good aircraft. Still couldn't run rings round a Spit though.
Dak (British by the way)
Still no evidence from 411A!
Perhaps he's just remembered that the P51 was designed by North American to British order. Still wasn't any good until the British fitted it with a British engine. After all this British influence it finally turned out to be a darn good aircraft. Still couldn't run rings round a Spit though.
Dak (British by the way)
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Perhaps he's just remembered that the P51 was designed by North American to British order
It was designed to escort US bombers all the way to the target and back, something no British designed aeroplane could possibly do.
Now, of course you might find conflicting and contrary info on the internet or published in some Brit book, but the facts say otherwise....and by folks who were at North American at the time.
My father knew many of them, personally.
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High Octane Petrol
Personnally, I couldn't care a jot, iota or tittle about who, what and how a Mustang P-51 arose. The comments were about an aircraft which arrived in this country and elsewhere which could not cope with its designed role- because it was underpowered.The US bomber fleets were designed to be able to fend for themselves. They couldn't. The most important thing- to me - was the appalling casualty rate of crews. Tomorrow, we Brits honour the fallen and we think of those who gave their lives for us- and for you.
Of course, it is quite true that we did not have long range escorts- and successful escorts were American airframes with British engines.
Perhaps it is prudent to add the Imphal Epitaph. My Squadron was with the British Army 14th Army in Burma
'When you go home,
Tell them of Us and say
For your tomorrow's
We gave our today.
Originally, it was written for the Greeks way back.
It applies to all those who fought for my freedom
Of course, it is quite true that we did not have long range escorts- and successful escorts were American airframes with British engines.
Perhaps it is prudent to add the Imphal Epitaph. My Squadron was with the British Army 14th Army in Burma
'When you go home,
Tell them of Us and say
For your tomorrow's
We gave our today.
Originally, it was written for the Greeks way back.
It applies to all those who fought for my freedom
Avoid imitations
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My father was a Rolls Royce apprentice during WWII. He told me stories of whole shipments of brand new Packard licence-built Merlins (built with white metal bearings) being deemed substandard and being taken apart and rebuilt by RR at Derby before being released for service and others later being dumped in a Derbyshire quarry, still in their crates.
I also understand that an enormous amount of research regarding high octane fuels for Rolls Royce was undertaken by the boffins working for Dalton's Oil, based eight miles from Derby. This company later became Silkolene and they are now ironically owned by a German company, Fuchs.
What was the success of the earlier non-Merlin (Allison) engined P-51s over Berlin?
This must have been written by a biased Brit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mu...gined_Mustangs
I also understand that an enormous amount of research regarding high octane fuels for Rolls Royce was undertaken by the boffins working for Dalton's Oil, based eight miles from Derby. This company later became Silkolene and they are now ironically owned by a German company, Fuchs.
What was the success of the earlier non-Merlin (Allison) engined P-51s over Berlin?
This must have been written by a biased Brit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-51_Mu...gined_Mustangs
Last edited by ShyTorque; 10th Nov 2007 at 08:39.
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Packard Merlins
I hadn't heard about the sub-standard Packhard's before. Proof that we learn something new every day. What I do know is they most certainly got it right fairly quickly. So much so that today's 'ideal' Merlin is considered to be 'transport' tops bolted to a Packhard bottom i.e. RR 500 series heads c/w blocks attached to Packhard crankshaft and crankcases.
Now, which Derbyshire quarry did you say...
camlobe
P.S. IIRC Ford UK built about as many Merlins as did RR and as did Packhard...but that is another story
Now, which Derbyshire quarry did you say...
camlobe
P.S. IIRC Ford UK built about as many Merlins as did RR and as did Packhard...but that is another story
I'd heard - but I can't remember the source that - on the contrary the Packhard Merlins were very well built and surprised the RR engineers because some pieces previously hand made could be made by machine..
As I said - can't even remember where I heard or read it but since the engines powered a lot of planes I'd assume they got the quality right pretty darn quickly?
As I said - can't even remember where I heard or read it but since the engines powered a lot of planes I'd assume they got the quality right pretty darn quickly?
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The Packard Merlins each arrived with its own impressive set of tools; mainly Blue Point and Snap-on. I inherited a fair few for my tool box. A MK 3 Lancaster never needed 4 Merlin tool sets.
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What was the success of the earlier non-Merlin (Allison) engined P-51s over Berlin?
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73 we used it in the Tiger Moth but don’t recall the colour
82UL (UL=unleaded) purple not commercially available at the moment
80/87 red
91/98 blue
100/130 green
108/135 brown
115/145 purple
100LL blue
Two laboratory engine tests are used to measure the antiknock performance of avgas: One measures performance at a lower fuel-air ratio (lean-mixture condition) that simulates cruising; the other at higher fuel-air ratios (rich-mixture conditions) that simulate take-off, where extra power is needed. Two tests are required because knock-free performance in the lean fuel/air ratio regime does not guarantee knock-free performance in the rich regime in some engines. The octane number scale is defined by two pure chemical reference fuels: normal heptane (n-heptane) with an octane number of zero, and iso-octane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane) with an octane number of 100. The octane number of a blend of these two compounds is equal to the volume percentage of iso-octane it contains. Iso-octane also defines 100 on the performance number scale. The performance number scale above 100 is defined by mixtures of iso-octane and tetraethyl lead.
The result from either test is called an octane number if it has a value of 100 or less, and a performance number (PN) if it has a value greater than 100. Hence 115/145 PN, not 115/145 octane.
Major Jimmie Doolittle pushed hard for the development of 100 octane fuel (In the 1930s he headed the aviation fuels section of the Shell) and convinced Shell to begin manufacturing it, to stockpile the chemicals necessary to make more, and to modify its refineries to make mass production of high-octane fuel possible. The first bulk shipment of 100-octane fuel arrived in Britain on the Esso tanker “Beaconhill” in June 1939 from the Esso refinery in Aruba. This and subsequent tanker shipments from Aruba, Curacao and the USA were stockpiled while the RAF continued to operate on 87 octane petrol. Having secured sufficient quantities of 100 octane, Fighter Command began converting its engines to this standard in March 1940, allowing boost (manifold) pressures to be raised without the risk of detonation in the cylinders when the Battle of Britain began on the 10th July 1940. This initial increase in maximum boost from 6 lb to 9 lb delivered a useful power growth of around 130hp at the rated altitude. Subsequent increases in permitted boost pressures throughout the war saw the Merlin's maximum boost on 100-octane fuel rise to 18 lb, allowing considerable increases in power output. The introduction of 150-octane fuel in 1944 allowed further increases to 25 lb boost.
R-R Merlins were hand built, every face being finished off by hand, and this time-consuming process placed great strain on the production capability of the skilled workforce involved in the manufacture of these engines.
Trafford Park and American engines were produced to closer tolerances than those of Rolls Royce by virtue of the high volume and interchangeable requirements of car production in the former, and a largely unskilled and semi-skilled female workforce in the latter.
Merlin Production
Rolls Royce 80,870
Ford Motor Company, Trafford Park 30,400
Packard 55,873
Continental 897
Total 168,040
Mustang - The US and UK had separate programs to install and trial Merlins. The UK sent AM121, AM203, AM208, AL963, and AL975 to Rolls Royce at Hucknall for modification. Major Hitchcock USAAF (Assistant Air Attache in London) was informed of the UK plan to fit the Merlin and as the engine was to be produced in the US he proposed to General “Hap” Arnold they should conduct the same program. As a result aircraft 41-37352 and 41-37421 were retained by North American for modification.The UK first flew theirs (AL975) on the 13 October 1942 and the US on the 30 November 1942.
82UL (UL=unleaded) purple not commercially available at the moment
80/87 red
91/98 blue
100/130 green
108/135 brown
115/145 purple
100LL blue
Two laboratory engine tests are used to measure the antiknock performance of avgas: One measures performance at a lower fuel-air ratio (lean-mixture condition) that simulates cruising; the other at higher fuel-air ratios (rich-mixture conditions) that simulate take-off, where extra power is needed. Two tests are required because knock-free performance in the lean fuel/air ratio regime does not guarantee knock-free performance in the rich regime in some engines. The octane number scale is defined by two pure chemical reference fuels: normal heptane (n-heptane) with an octane number of zero, and iso-octane (2,2,4-trimethylpentane) with an octane number of 100. The octane number of a blend of these two compounds is equal to the volume percentage of iso-octane it contains. Iso-octane also defines 100 on the performance number scale. The performance number scale above 100 is defined by mixtures of iso-octane and tetraethyl lead.
The result from either test is called an octane number if it has a value of 100 or less, and a performance number (PN) if it has a value greater than 100. Hence 115/145 PN, not 115/145 octane.
Major Jimmie Doolittle pushed hard for the development of 100 octane fuel (In the 1930s he headed the aviation fuels section of the Shell) and convinced Shell to begin manufacturing it, to stockpile the chemicals necessary to make more, and to modify its refineries to make mass production of high-octane fuel possible. The first bulk shipment of 100-octane fuel arrived in Britain on the Esso tanker “Beaconhill” in June 1939 from the Esso refinery in Aruba. This and subsequent tanker shipments from Aruba, Curacao and the USA were stockpiled while the RAF continued to operate on 87 octane petrol. Having secured sufficient quantities of 100 octane, Fighter Command began converting its engines to this standard in March 1940, allowing boost (manifold) pressures to be raised without the risk of detonation in the cylinders when the Battle of Britain began on the 10th July 1940. This initial increase in maximum boost from 6 lb to 9 lb delivered a useful power growth of around 130hp at the rated altitude. Subsequent increases in permitted boost pressures throughout the war saw the Merlin's maximum boost on 100-octane fuel rise to 18 lb, allowing considerable increases in power output. The introduction of 150-octane fuel in 1944 allowed further increases to 25 lb boost.
R-R Merlins were hand built, every face being finished off by hand, and this time-consuming process placed great strain on the production capability of the skilled workforce involved in the manufacture of these engines.
Trafford Park and American engines were produced to closer tolerances than those of Rolls Royce by virtue of the high volume and interchangeable requirements of car production in the former, and a largely unskilled and semi-skilled female workforce in the latter.
Merlin Production
Rolls Royce 80,870
Ford Motor Company, Trafford Park 30,400
Packard 55,873
Continental 897
Total 168,040
Mustang - The US and UK had separate programs to install and trial Merlins. The UK sent AM121, AM203, AM208, AL963, and AL975 to Rolls Royce at Hucknall for modification. Major Hitchcock USAAF (Assistant Air Attache in London) was informed of the UK plan to fit the Merlin and as the engine was to be produced in the US he proposed to General “Hap” Arnold they should conduct the same program. As a result aircraft 41-37352 and 41-37421 were retained by North American for modification.The UK first flew theirs (AL975) on the 13 October 1942 and the US on the 30 November 1942.
Avoid imitations
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Now, which Derbyshire quarry did you say...
What was the success of the earlier non-Merlin (Allison) engined P-51s over Berlin?
