BoB Pilots "couldn't shoot straight"!
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But why invade when Doenitz and a few more U-boats could have achieved victory by starvation?
But they didn't did they? Thanks to the bravery and courage of both the Merchant Navy and Royal Navy, but also not forgetting that of the RAF Coastal Command.
But they didn't did they? Thanks to the bravery and courage of both the Merchant Navy and Royal Navy, but also not forgetting that of the RAF Coastal Command.
Die Glückliche Zeit
And what a shock it must have been for the U-boat crews when the British fitted effective radar to surface escorts. But not as big a shock as when a searchlight complete with Wellington appeared from the darkness as if from nowhere.
The LW didnt even have a stock of anti-capital-ship AP bombs.
The Battle of the Atlantic was primarily about tonnage; if the U-boats can sink more tonnage then the Allies can build then it's the end for the UK, which is one reason why it was game over for AH as early as 1941.
I would recommend reading The Most Dangerous Enemy: A History of the Battle of BritainStephen Bungay. Which looks at the Battle and some of the truths behind the legends and myths. In my opinion the result is a book which only increases my respect and admiration for the people that fought in the battle.
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous...4317637&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Dangerous...4317637&sr=1-1
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Yep - couldn't agree more about Bungay's book. For too long we have underestimated the RAF of 1940 - it was not an amateurish gentlemens club whose members strolled out to derring do in the skies.
In truth it was an extremely efficient air defence force, staffed by dedicated professionals and flown by well trained and well led pilots. The RDF network was a world leader, its aircraft perfectly suited for short range defence (even their biggest weakness, 303mg's, merely meant that many LW aircraft managed to return to base carrying hundreds of badly injured crew with all the resulting effects on morale).
The contrast with the almost shambolic Luftwaffe is almost as surprising as the fact that the roles have been almost completely reversed in the minds of the public. The LW were led by soldiers rather than fliers, with no idea how to run a long term aerial campaign, with aircraft ill-suited for the task (Bf109 no range, Bf110 a failure, biggest bomber - He111 capable of carrying a meagre load and defended by hand held guns better suited to 1917, most common bomber - the Ju87 - a strategic and personal disaster for crews).
Lets not do these men and women the disservice of underestimating their achievements.
In truth it was an extremely efficient air defence force, staffed by dedicated professionals and flown by well trained and well led pilots. The RDF network was a world leader, its aircraft perfectly suited for short range defence (even their biggest weakness, 303mg's, merely meant that many LW aircraft managed to return to base carrying hundreds of badly injured crew with all the resulting effects on morale).
The contrast with the almost shambolic Luftwaffe is almost as surprising as the fact that the roles have been almost completely reversed in the minds of the public. The LW were led by soldiers rather than fliers, with no idea how to run a long term aerial campaign, with aircraft ill-suited for the task (Bf109 no range, Bf110 a failure, biggest bomber - He111 capable of carrying a meagre load and defended by hand held guns better suited to 1917, most common bomber - the Ju87 - a strategic and personal disaster for crews).
Lets not do these men and women the disservice of underestimating their achievements.
Cunning Artificer
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...the crack invasion troops...
1. The (successful) invasion of Crete was accomplished by airborne assault in the face of British naval control of the surrounding sea.
2. The Luftwaffe did account for huge numbers of our ships. Almost a third of naval losses in fact.
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Blacksheep is more than correct!
Crete fell with the RAF unable to defend its own airfields by its own people. It gave rise to two events. One was the formation of the RAF Regiment and the second was the squarebashing of recruits which ensured that we all had some knowledge of how to use a rifle with some chance of hitting the target. Recruits were kept back from being posted away to units to learn their -- 6 weeks trade training. Like how to know what 87 and 100 octane were!!!!
Am I right? It's a long time since I was in blue but the 'infantry training' continued with RAF Regiment Corporals being posted to units to continue the training and onto Sten guns.
Going back further, My Squadron- 31 Goldstars had a Ghurka Defence whilst in Burma with the Forgotten 14th Army. Our Association still gives two pensions to 'our little Ghurka brothers' as a Thank You.
Let me turn to the Heinkel 111 impression. I faced a HE 111 several/many times. One dropped 8 HE's- one with a timer and breadbaskets of incendiaries. Oh, and was machine gunning! The second 111 dropped only two bombs. One hit and completely destroyed a factory whilst the second fell in a stone quarry. The bomb load was a mere couple of sea mines!
I recall HMS Manchester as she did her gunnery trials off the Tyne.
Manchester was torpedoed and subsequently scuttled in the Med.
For those who mumble 'all our yesterdays , old man' The footage of Coventry proves the effectiveness of the HE111.
Crete fell with the RAF unable to defend its own airfields by its own people. It gave rise to two events. One was the formation of the RAF Regiment and the second was the squarebashing of recruits which ensured that we all had some knowledge of how to use a rifle with some chance of hitting the target. Recruits were kept back from being posted away to units to learn their -- 6 weeks trade training. Like how to know what 87 and 100 octane were!!!!
Am I right? It's a long time since I was in blue but the 'infantry training' continued with RAF Regiment Corporals being posted to units to continue the training and onto Sten guns.
Going back further, My Squadron- 31 Goldstars had a Ghurka Defence whilst in Burma with the Forgotten 14th Army. Our Association still gives two pensions to 'our little Ghurka brothers' as a Thank You.
Let me turn to the Heinkel 111 impression. I faced a HE 111 several/many times. One dropped 8 HE's- one with a timer and breadbaskets of incendiaries. Oh, and was machine gunning! The second 111 dropped only two bombs. One hit and completely destroyed a factory whilst the second fell in a stone quarry. The bomb load was a mere couple of sea mines!
I recall HMS Manchester as she did her gunnery trials off the Tyne.
Manchester was torpedoed and subsequently scuttled in the Med.
For those who mumble 'all our yesterdays , old man' The footage of Coventry proves the effectiveness of the HE111.
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No mumbling from me about yesterdays - having never faced anyone wanting to do more than punch me I have only respect!
On a theoretical note and to answer some interesting points...
Crete - its an interesting comparison. Worth bearing in mind that
1) It was a very close run thing. The Allies had Ultra decrypts telling them exactly what was coming - but couldn't/wouldn't act on them in case it let the secret of Bletchleys success out of the bag. On the day of the invasion, thousands of troops were still guarding beaches the high command knew would not be attacked. They would have made the difference - can you imagine the British not using that sort of info for an invasion of the UK?
2) It was a very close run thing. Despite 1) above, the Germans still decided never to use airborne troops in this way again after they were decimated by exactly the sort of disorganised army that had left Dunkirk.
3) The allies that nearly beat the best the Germans had to offer were not fighting for their homeland - indeed the Kiwis were about as far away as they could be
4) How would the LW get the troops to the UK? Remember the RAF could not be defeated by the LW, only forced to move a bit North. The Germans may no have had control of the seas around Crete, they sure had control of the skies...
5) ...which follows onto the fact that even with air supremacy they still only sank 1/3 of the RN ships. Only 1 would scupper an army in barges in the channel.
All IMHO of course
On a theoretical note and to answer some interesting points...
Crete - its an interesting comparison. Worth bearing in mind that
1) It was a very close run thing. The Allies had Ultra decrypts telling them exactly what was coming - but couldn't/wouldn't act on them in case it let the secret of Bletchleys success out of the bag. On the day of the invasion, thousands of troops were still guarding beaches the high command knew would not be attacked. They would have made the difference - can you imagine the British not using that sort of info for an invasion of the UK?
2) It was a very close run thing. Despite 1) above, the Germans still decided never to use airborne troops in this way again after they were decimated by exactly the sort of disorganised army that had left Dunkirk.
3) The allies that nearly beat the best the Germans had to offer were not fighting for their homeland - indeed the Kiwis were about as far away as they could be
4) How would the LW get the troops to the UK? Remember the RAF could not be defeated by the LW, only forced to move a bit North. The Germans may no have had control of the seas around Crete, they sure had control of the skies...
5) ...which follows onto the fact that even with air supremacy they still only sank 1/3 of the RN ships. Only 1 would scupper an army in barges in the channel.
All IMHO of course
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Edited to say - the post I was replying to has dissapeared! Ah well, I'll leave this anyway......
Yep - they had Ultra decrypts
From the IWM
And (not that I'd ever take it at face value but it says interesting stuff about the German casualties) from Wiki.
Yep - they had Ultra decrypts
From the IWM
Some 10,000 Greeks, 6,500 Australians, 7,700 New Zealanders and 17,000 British troops formed 'Creforce' under the command of the New Zealand Brigadier Bernard Freyberg, VC. Even as the exhausted and ill-equipped defenders settled into rough camps in the island's villages and olive groves � many lacking blankets or even mess kit � Freyberg knew that he faced attack. British intercepts of German signals gave him 'Ultra' intelligence on the locations, strengths and timings of the coming attack.
The Battle of Crete was unique in three respects: it was the first-ever mainly airborne invasion; it was the first time the Allies made significant use of intelligence from the deciphered German Enigma code; and it was the first time invading German troops encountered mass resistance from a civilian population. In light of the heavy casualties suffered by the parachutists, Adolf Hitler forbade further large scale airborne operations. However, the Allies were impressed by the potential of paratroopers, and started to build their own airborne divisions.
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I removed my bit because there is little to be gained when Crete was invaded- a year before Enigma was captured.
It was a case of Shakespeare's Chiming Clocks in Rome.
a terminological inexactitude!
It was a case of Shakespeare's Chiming Clocks in Rome.
a terminological inexactitude!
I removed my bit because there is little to be gained when Crete was invaded- a year before Enigma was captured.
It was a case of Shakespeare's Chiming Clocks in Rome.
a terminological inexactitude!
It was a case of Shakespeare's Chiming Clocks in Rome.
a terminological inexactitude!
Enigma decrypts were available to the Allies during this period. The Poles had cracked Enigma as far back as 1933, and had shared their information with Britain and France later in the '30s.
The first "Bombe" had been built in Bletchley in summer 1940, and regular decrypts were available from this time, adding to the rather more "sporadic" decrypts that had been available up to this point.
There are many good books on Ultra / Enigma (I can recommend the one by Hugh Sebag-Montefiore).
FBW
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It is quite correct to mention that the Brits could break the Nazi Codes and Messages. Unfortunately, the speed of decoding was manual and painfully slow. I doubt that most important signals could be identified- just like that. Capturing 'Enigma' changed all that.
Returning to Crete, the British losses were horrendous at sea and it suggests that our air cover was hopeless following the carrier damage and losses. Whatever the damage inflicted on invading parachutists, I cannot imagine the local Cretans being able to muster much with pitchporks and wild fowling artefacts against troops battle trained from the Kondor Legions in Spain. I recall that my branch of the Look, Duck and Vanish- the forerunner to the Home Guard had one 12 bore . Double barrelled, of course. I was map making for them. We, did know where to get explosives and detonators from the local railway and coal mines--- but??? Our Dad's Army had, survived the trenches of the Somme. Most of the Cretans who were battle trained had gone into Ancient History.
Moving back to Greece itself, Tito's partisans were supplied by air and sea. My cousin was Tito's Signals Officer.
Moving back to Dunkirk, we, the Brits- Reservists had no chance.
The average weapon was their Dad's Lee Enfield with a handful of clips.
The weaponry of the RAF in 1949 was the same lot of rifles and a few 9mm Stens.
I recall the questions of my OC Admin who asked about the reply to a possible Russian Invasion- 'Corporal, will the men fight?' I was blunt ''Sir, for the first time since the age of 9 these boys have something to answer back'
They had been starved, bombed, shot at, been homeless and so on.
How long we would have lasted with 10 rounds apiece is pretty clear.
In a year or so, the 8 year olds at the outbreak of war were fighting in Malaya and then Korea- with their Dad's rifles!
Sorry, old lad, but it is near to the 11th of the 11th of the 11th- and it still hurts.
Returning to Crete, the British losses were horrendous at sea and it suggests that our air cover was hopeless following the carrier damage and losses. Whatever the damage inflicted on invading parachutists, I cannot imagine the local Cretans being able to muster much with pitchporks and wild fowling artefacts against troops battle trained from the Kondor Legions in Spain. I recall that my branch of the Look, Duck and Vanish- the forerunner to the Home Guard had one 12 bore . Double barrelled, of course. I was map making for them. We, did know where to get explosives and detonators from the local railway and coal mines--- but??? Our Dad's Army had, survived the trenches of the Somme. Most of the Cretans who were battle trained had gone into Ancient History.
Moving back to Greece itself, Tito's partisans were supplied by air and sea. My cousin was Tito's Signals Officer.
Moving back to Dunkirk, we, the Brits- Reservists had no chance.
The average weapon was their Dad's Lee Enfield with a handful of clips.
The weaponry of the RAF in 1949 was the same lot of rifles and a few 9mm Stens.
I recall the questions of my OC Admin who asked about the reply to a possible Russian Invasion- 'Corporal, will the men fight?' I was blunt ''Sir, for the first time since the age of 9 these boys have something to answer back'
They had been starved, bombed, shot at, been homeless and so on.
How long we would have lasted with 10 rounds apiece is pretty clear.
In a year or so, the 8 year olds at the outbreak of war were fighting in Malaya and then Korea- with their Dad's rifles!
Sorry, old lad, but it is near to the 11th of the 11th of the 11th- and it still hurts.
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Interesting comments as always!
As mentioned above, Crete was the end for large-scale airborne assaults by the Germans. The German invasion of Crete was intended to be a combined operation, but the RN sank most of the first convoy, the second convoy was ordered to retire.
Perhaps the measure of the ineffectiveness of the Luftwaffe against larger vessels is that it failed to sink one RN capital ship. Throughout the entire war.
"To the three services: the Royal Navy, the Royal Advertising Federation, and the Evacuees"
The Luftwaffe was essentially a ground attack force, primary function to support the Wehrmacht, it did this rather well.
As mentioned above, Crete was the end for large-scale airborne assaults by the Germans. The German invasion of Crete was intended to be a combined operation, but the RN sank most of the first convoy, the second convoy was ordered to retire.
Perhaps the measure of the ineffectiveness of the Luftwaffe against larger vessels is that it failed to sink one RN capital ship. Throughout the entire war.
"To the three services: the Royal Navy, the Royal Advertising Federation, and the Evacuees"
The Luftwaffe was essentially a ground attack force, primary function to support the Wehrmacht, it did this rather well.
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Mike, HMS Manchester was not sunk by air attack- we scuttled it!
She was quite a 'dreadnought', sailed out of the Tyne on gunnery trials, if I recall- as a 7 year old. Probably it was a birthday treat-- on the day that R J Mitchell died!
She was quite a 'dreadnought', sailed out of the Tyne on gunnery trials, if I recall- as a 7 year old. Probably it was a birthday treat-- on the day that R J Mitchell died!
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2. The Luftwaffe did account for huge numbers of our ships. Almost a third of naval losses in fact.
The RN didn't prevent Prinz Eugen, Gneisenau and Scharnhorst from sailing up the channel.
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Mike,
RAF Bombs would have just bounced off.
Think about it- Bismark was only crippled because a torpedo hit the rudder which was not within the real armour protection.
Tirpitz- well read the history of 617 Squadron. We hadn't anything which would do. These battle wagons were far heavier than the Geneva Convention allowed.
RAF Bombs would have just bounced off.
Think about it- Bismark was only crippled because a torpedo hit the rudder which was not within the real armour protection.
Tirpitz- well read the history of 617 Squadron. We hadn't anything which would do. These battle wagons were far heavier than the Geneva Convention allowed.
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This site
http://www.avoca.ndirect.co.uk/enigma/enigma9.htm
contains this interesting quote regarding BOB/enigma
http://www.avoca.ndirect.co.uk/enigma/enigma9.htm
contains this interesting quote regarding BOB/enigma
The actual order to start massive bombing given by Reichsmarschall Goering was intercepted, decrypted and immediately passed to Dowding and Churchill. It read: " Within a short period of time you will wipe the British Air Force from the sky. Heil Hitler" but bad weather delayed the German attack for several days. In the first wave the Germans made 1,786 sorties against airfields and defence positions, losing 75 aircraft. As the intensity of bombing was continuously increasing, Fighter Command was able to engage the enemy in the most effective way. Dowding's methods were highly criticised by his subordinates, who did not have access to Ultra information. This eventually resulted in him being sacked at the end of 1940 and in retirement by 1942. What irony! He was sacked, because he knew much more than his critics.
It is quite correct to mention that the Brits could break the Nazi Codes and Messages. Unfortunately, the speed of decoding was manual and painfully slow. I doubt that most important signals could be identified- just like that.
I prefer to believe the views of the experts and historians. Maybe if you actually read any of the histories about Ultra / Enigma you will begin to understand. Much of the value of ULTRA was not gained from individual signals (although many such were broken in time to be of value), but in fact from the painstaking cross-referencing of a myriad specks of information.
Capturing 'Enigma' changed all that
The machine itself was relatively easy to replicate. The problem was discovering the rotor and plugboard settings, which changed daily (or even more frequently). That was the challenge, not getting hold of the machine.
Please read a little about the subject before making such meaningless pronouncements.
FBW
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I was on something very close to what you are talking about.
Even now, what went on is not being admitted.
The important thing is whether the staffing levels at Bletchley Park are correct. If they were so low, I am right. If they weren't, I apologise.
What has to be remembered is that things happened- in very unusual and small places- not just Bletchley Park.
Even now, what went on is not being admitted.
The important thing is whether the staffing levels at Bletchley Park are correct. If they were so low, I am right. If they weren't, I apologise.
What has to be remembered is that things happened- in very unusual and small places- not just Bletchley Park.
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#3, Robin: Not again!! A.Cumming's DT item is repeated in current BBC History mag. Popular History spreads interest, snares youngblood that may dig anew and amaze us fogies that may not know it all. On any well-aired subj a fresh slant is needed, if an author is to sell. Pieces in the mag include one on Spitfire's emergence via Westland Whirlwind, Lord Nuffield, suppliers' "moaning" about V-S' poor drawings, and fabrication dispersal inc. to a basket-weaver, all traced "for the first time properly" (my shelf has 4 books on this).
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Another re-hashes last year's de-bunking of the knightly joust. "Couldn't shoot straight" is the shoutline for the cannon: m.g. issue. It's right, in that 19-year-olds after 2 pops at a trundling drogue must then tangle for real. Conscript PBI had the same wake-up after a dozen rounds at the butts, then into a maelstrom. On both sides. So: how did they do it? The PM gave the answer, there and then: "so much owed..." Some tenets of faith and pride deflect the debunker. Please: less pooh, more phew!
.
Another re-hashes last year's de-bunking of the knightly joust. "Couldn't shoot straight" is the shoutline for the cannon: m.g. issue. It's right, in that 19-year-olds after 2 pops at a trundling drogue must then tangle for real. Conscript PBI had the same wake-up after a dozen rounds at the butts, then into a maelstrom. On both sides. So: how did they do it? The PM gave the answer, there and then: "so much owed..." Some tenets of faith and pride deflect the debunker. Please: less pooh, more phew!
