Falklands Crash Sites
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A4 Skyhawk crash site, South Jason Is
Sorry to come in to this about 2 years late, have only just today discovered your network. I am ex-Navy, though not an aviator. I can confirm Skyhawk on South Jason was C313, an A4-C of FAA Grupo 4. I was on a Naval Det from HECATE 18 October 1982, sent ashore to investigate wreckage we had seen from our Wasp, whilst on survey ops locally. We located and identified the remains of pilot Lt Jorge Cascos, who we then buried. He has since been reburied at the main Argentine cemetery, Darwin, after his family had a DNA test done in Argentina. This reburial was done, only as recently as 7 March 2009, with members of his family present. I personally discovered the bomb, a sight I shall not forget, as I virtually stumbled into it, as it was surrounded by tallish 'tussock' grass. We concluded in our report (and we were not qualified crash investigators) that one possible cause of the crash could well have been striking the steep and rocky hill side in poor visibility. I still have a summary of the report in my possession, (together with the altimeter).
Paul R
Paul R
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Hello Paul and wellcome
Very interesting. Did you remember any evidence of C-303 plane (Lt Farias) in the zone?
In my opinion they had to suffer an air collision, C-313 crashing in South Jason while C-303 fell to sea, probably not far from there. What do you think?
Thanks
Very interesting. Did you remember any evidence of C-303 plane (Lt Farias) in the zone?
In my opinion they had to suffer an air collision, C-313 crashing in South Jason while C-303 fell to sea, probably not far from there. What do you think?
Thanks
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Falklands Crash Sites - South Jason Islands
Hello Jualbo
Thank you for your response on this most sad, yet for me personally, very memorable subject. It is good to talk. Yes, I have only recently been aware that Lt Jorge Farias, (perhaps Jorge Casco's 'wing man'?) in A-4C Skyhawk C-303, was also lost on the same day. What you suggest, an air collision, is also a possibility that I had not considered and we certainly did not consider at the time of our investigation in October 1982, as we had no knowledge onboard our Hydrographic ship then, of Jorge Farias' existance, or indeed precisely what date Jorge Casco crashed.
We identified poor Jorge Casco from a small engraved aluminium tag and a pink signed certificate in his flying overalls. His name was also found on a 'dynotape' label stuck onto his helmet. I remember at the time, that for a few minutes we thought there had been two aircrew in this plane, because I found what I thought were the remains of two flying helmets. Jorge Casco's helmet was no longer attached to him, but some 30 metres away from him, as I recall. I then found another white 'helmet' very close by, this time of a slighly thinner and smaller construction, which initially gave us a shock, but when we matched the two together, we concluded we were probably only looking at an inner and outer shell of the same helmet. I stress at this particular moment, we had not yet reached the main part of the aircraft wreckage and we had no idea at this stage what we were looking at, that is, what type of aircraft or how many aircrew it would normally carry.
About 1 year ago, I came across a South Atlantic News Agency (Merco Press) website with a current press release about Jorge Casco's reburial at the Darwin cemetery, as described earlier. This press release also linked to an actual photograph of Jorge Casco carrying out in flight refuelling on the day of his crash, 9 May. I then went to the FAA website for my first time. This website I am sure you are familiar with. Here I can now add a new twist to the story. In the FAA website page entitled 'Memoria de Caidos' (Coflicto de Malvinas), there are details together with photographs of aircrew lost. When I saw photographs of the two Jorges, (Jorge Eduardo Casco and Jorge Ricardo Farias), I was quite shocked, as I immediately recognised the man we identified as Jorge Casco, but his photograph was inset with the details of Jorge Farias and not Jorge Casco.
Like the bomb, the visual memory of who we buried that day, is engraved on my mind. I can only assume who ever pasted the information together on the FAA's web pages, got the two photos incorrectly attached. I hope this is the case. Not wishing to offend anyone, I have in fact since written to the FAA mentioning this as I feel memorial records should be as accurate as possible. I also wrote for personal reasons, I wished for them to try and pass a letter to Jorge Casco's family.
In answer to your original question Jualbo, most of Jorge Casco's A4C was identifiable, albeit spread over an area of about 150metres wide by 500-700 metres long. Undercarriage (light blue) parts quite close to bomb, both being at the east end of the crash site, near an almost vertical rock face. (I dragged a piece of 'V' shaped undercarriage a few metres and lined the V up to point at the bomb position for future reference from the air).
Due to spread, we judged angle of impact to the ground to have been shallow and not vertical. Parachute still attached to pilot as I recall and not appearing to have been fully deployed properly. Life jacket attached, torn, with CO2 inflation cylinder undischarged. Pilot's seat not found. Hope this is of help.
Regards
Paul
ps - I have thought hard overnight, googled the island again, and based on the description of what we found and the sort of weather/vis conditions we experienced on some days and knowing that this flight's mission was cut short due to bad weather, I offer the following theory:
... that C313 came in low and fast on a WSW heading, more or less in line with the islands position line ie around 240/250 to 060/070 degrees, he may or may not have come out of low cloud suddenly, having a a base of no more than perhaps 100-150 feet, which would have obscured the sharp and precipitous peaks of the ENE corner of the island. This was unfortunate, for clear sea lay close by north and south. He may or may not have seen a solid wall of rock before him, rising up into the cloud.
Either way, I think he just clipped a slightly lower ridge on the north side of the main highest ridge running along the island's centre. This might explain the bomb and undercarriage found at the NE corner of the crash site, just below the lower ridge mentioned. The rest of the aircraft then appears to have been thrown beyond this point impacting at a shallow angle and breaking up along a narrow stretch some hundreds of metres long. Turbine blades scattered over relatively small area, suggesting engine still intact until impact? Similarly, 20mm cannon and rounds scattered in small area. Fusalage and cockpit instrument panel (including joystick), separated from each other, but clearly identifiable. Wings not so recognisable as mostly in small pieces. Evidence of scorched rock surface/burning of grass.
When I think about it, I suppose all of this tends to point to single aircraft incident rather than mid air collision? Agian, hope this is helpful ...
Regards
Paul
Thank you for your response on this most sad, yet for me personally, very memorable subject. It is good to talk. Yes, I have only recently been aware that Lt Jorge Farias, (perhaps Jorge Casco's 'wing man'?) in A-4C Skyhawk C-303, was also lost on the same day. What you suggest, an air collision, is also a possibility that I had not considered and we certainly did not consider at the time of our investigation in October 1982, as we had no knowledge onboard our Hydrographic ship then, of Jorge Farias' existance, or indeed precisely what date Jorge Casco crashed.
We identified poor Jorge Casco from a small engraved aluminium tag and a pink signed certificate in his flying overalls. His name was also found on a 'dynotape' label stuck onto his helmet. I remember at the time, that for a few minutes we thought there had been two aircrew in this plane, because I found what I thought were the remains of two flying helmets. Jorge Casco's helmet was no longer attached to him, but some 30 metres away from him, as I recall. I then found another white 'helmet' very close by, this time of a slighly thinner and smaller construction, which initially gave us a shock, but when we matched the two together, we concluded we were probably only looking at an inner and outer shell of the same helmet. I stress at this particular moment, we had not yet reached the main part of the aircraft wreckage and we had no idea at this stage what we were looking at, that is, what type of aircraft or how many aircrew it would normally carry.
About 1 year ago, I came across a South Atlantic News Agency (Merco Press) website with a current press release about Jorge Casco's reburial at the Darwin cemetery, as described earlier. This press release also linked to an actual photograph of Jorge Casco carrying out in flight refuelling on the day of his crash, 9 May. I then went to the FAA website for my first time. This website I am sure you are familiar with. Here I can now add a new twist to the story. In the FAA website page entitled 'Memoria de Caidos' (Coflicto de Malvinas), there are details together with photographs of aircrew lost. When I saw photographs of the two Jorges, (Jorge Eduardo Casco and Jorge Ricardo Farias), I was quite shocked, as I immediately recognised the man we identified as Jorge Casco, but his photograph was inset with the details of Jorge Farias and not Jorge Casco.
Like the bomb, the visual memory of who we buried that day, is engraved on my mind. I can only assume who ever pasted the information together on the FAA's web pages, got the two photos incorrectly attached. I hope this is the case. Not wishing to offend anyone, I have in fact since written to the FAA mentioning this as I feel memorial records should be as accurate as possible. I also wrote for personal reasons, I wished for them to try and pass a letter to Jorge Casco's family.
In answer to your original question Jualbo, most of Jorge Casco's A4C was identifiable, albeit spread over an area of about 150metres wide by 500-700 metres long. Undercarriage (light blue) parts quite close to bomb, both being at the east end of the crash site, near an almost vertical rock face. (I dragged a piece of 'V' shaped undercarriage a few metres and lined the V up to point at the bomb position for future reference from the air).
Due to spread, we judged angle of impact to the ground to have been shallow and not vertical. Parachute still attached to pilot as I recall and not appearing to have been fully deployed properly. Life jacket attached, torn, with CO2 inflation cylinder undischarged. Pilot's seat not found. Hope this is of help.
Regards
Paul
ps - I have thought hard overnight, googled the island again, and based on the description of what we found and the sort of weather/vis conditions we experienced on some days and knowing that this flight's mission was cut short due to bad weather, I offer the following theory:
... that C313 came in low and fast on a WSW heading, more or less in line with the islands position line ie around 240/250 to 060/070 degrees, he may or may not have come out of low cloud suddenly, having a a base of no more than perhaps 100-150 feet, which would have obscured the sharp and precipitous peaks of the ENE corner of the island. This was unfortunate, for clear sea lay close by north and south. He may or may not have seen a solid wall of rock before him, rising up into the cloud.
Either way, I think he just clipped a slightly lower ridge on the north side of the main highest ridge running along the island's centre. This might explain the bomb and undercarriage found at the NE corner of the crash site, just below the lower ridge mentioned. The rest of the aircraft then appears to have been thrown beyond this point impacting at a shallow angle and breaking up along a narrow stretch some hundreds of metres long. Turbine blades scattered over relatively small area, suggesting engine still intact until impact? Similarly, 20mm cannon and rounds scattered in small area. Fusalage and cockpit instrument panel (including joystick), separated from each other, but clearly identifiable. Wings not so recognisable as mostly in small pieces. Evidence of scorched rock surface/burning of grass.
When I think about it, I suppose all of this tends to point to single aircraft incident rather than mid air collision? Agian, hope this is helpful ...
Regards
Paul
Last edited by PR01; 22nd Feb 2011 at 21:02. Reason: afterthoughts ...
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Hello again Paul:
A really interesting history. I send you a pm.
Many thanks for this info.
It would be great if after this time there is a posibility to find the remains of Jorge Farias.
I found in INTERNET that perhaps the second A-4C wreck is shallow waters around South Jason.
HMS Coventry (D118) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Coventry's captain, Hart-Dyke claims that two A-4C Skyhawks of Grupo 4 were shot down by the Sea Darts, but Aircraft (C-303 and C-313) were lost in bad weather, with both wrecks found on South Jason Island. One on the Northwest side of the cliffs, the other in shallow waters on the SouthWest. Lt Casco and Lt Farias were both killed.[5]
[5]^ Falklands Air War, Chris Hobson / Historia Oficial de la Fuerza Aérea Argentina, Volume 6 / Air War in the Falklands, Christopher Chant
PD: Paul, the body you found, was inside the cokpit or outside on the sorrounding ground? According to you explanation it seems the pilot had tried the ejection. Was he buried at Darwin?
Although perhaps seems a macabre question, was the body completed? I know it was 5 months since the accident when you arrived to Jason island. According to the info I could collect, 4 bones were found in 1999 (the ones buried in 2008). There is a photo of the helmet which was given to the family during the burial at Darwin
A really interesting history. I send you a pm.
Many thanks for this info.
It would be great if after this time there is a posibility to find the remains of Jorge Farias.
I found in INTERNET that perhaps the second A-4C wreck is shallow waters around South Jason.
HMS Coventry (D118) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Coventry's captain, Hart-Dyke claims that two A-4C Skyhawks of Grupo 4 were shot down by the Sea Darts, but Aircraft (C-303 and C-313) were lost in bad weather, with both wrecks found on South Jason Island. One on the Northwest side of the cliffs, the other in shallow waters on the SouthWest. Lt Casco and Lt Farias were both killed.[5]
[5]^ Falklands Air War, Chris Hobson / Historia Oficial de la Fuerza Aérea Argentina, Volume 6 / Air War in the Falklands, Christopher Chant
PD: Paul, the body you found, was inside the cokpit or outside on the sorrounding ground? According to you explanation it seems the pilot had tried the ejection. Was he buried at Darwin?
Although perhaps seems a macabre question, was the body completed? I know it was 5 months since the accident when you arrived to Jason island. According to the info I could collect, 4 bones were found in 1999 (the ones buried in 2008). There is a photo of the helmet which was given to the family during the burial at Darwin
Last edited by jualbo; 24th Feb 2011 at 19:09.
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A4-C Souh Jason
Jualbo, if I may, I will speak only in general terms in this forum, but will also try and email you shortly. As I recall, pilot remains were within 100 metres or so of the cockpit remains, but definately not in the same place, however it is my opinion that an ejection attempt had probably not been possible. I had not seen your picture before, so seeing the helmet again was interesting.
Paul
Paul
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Hello The Claw:
Which date is the photo? Are you sure it´s during the war?
I undestand that Port William Sound is the Sound just north from the inlet of Port Stanley airport. Not far from that zone, during the last night of combats there was a failed SAS mission with boats trying to disembark just west from Stanley Harbour bay.
Perhaps it´s from this. Or some insertion of forward artillery observators for NGS.
Which date is the photo? Are you sure it´s during the war?
I undestand that Port William Sound is the Sound just north from the inlet of Port Stanley airport. Not far from that zone, during the last night of combats there was a failed SAS mission with boats trying to disembark just west from Stanley Harbour bay.
Perhaps it´s from this. Or some insertion of forward artillery observators for NGS.
PR01,if you `google earth` for S Jason,and go in close you will probably see `Panoramio` pictures of the island ,taken along the Ridgeline.There is another one taken by Darrin42`,on the NW side called `West view`, which shows a piece of aircraft wreckage,looks a little like a stores carrier,or possible wing section.Position.51.12..19.78S 60.53..45.04W at about 74m elevation.About 250 m further East appear to be possible`unusual objects` between 97-120m elevation..I did recce the area in `93` but only from a Herc.
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Crash sites investigations
Hello Edmund
Afraid not any others in that sort of detail. However, we visited South Georgia several times during our deployment in '82-83 and I climbed over the remains of a Puma I think, that was downed by our Marines at Grytviken. Also saw farely close up, the beached submarine (Santa Fe?), the conning tower of which ENDURANCE's Wasp had managed to put an AS12 through. One of our salvage tugs subsequently tried to tow it out to scuttle in deep water, but it sank on tow near the entrance to Grytviken. We also took some BAS scientists back to Shackleton House, Grytviken. I was privilaged to share a cabin with Bob Headland for a while, who had surrendered South Georgia to the Argentines after the Marine det from ENDURANCE (Officer I/C Lt Keith Mills) were overwhelmed after putting up a damn good fight, in which they downed the Puma and put a hole in a Corvette to boot. Bob Headland did the parle-ing at the surrender, because he " ... was the only one amongst the Brits there who spoke any Spanish ... !". When I last saw a mention of Bob in a Daily Telegragh article a few years back, he had become the Director of British Antarctic Survey - Cambridge. He was/is a great guy, for whom I built up a tremendous respect.
Regards
Paul
Afraid not any others in that sort of detail. However, we visited South Georgia several times during our deployment in '82-83 and I climbed over the remains of a Puma I think, that was downed by our Marines at Grytviken. Also saw farely close up, the beached submarine (Santa Fe?), the conning tower of which ENDURANCE's Wasp had managed to put an AS12 through. One of our salvage tugs subsequently tried to tow it out to scuttle in deep water, but it sank on tow near the entrance to Grytviken. We also took some BAS scientists back to Shackleton House, Grytviken. I was privilaged to share a cabin with Bob Headland for a while, who had surrendered South Georgia to the Argentines after the Marine det from ENDURANCE (Officer I/C Lt Keith Mills) were overwhelmed after putting up a damn good fight, in which they downed the Puma and put a hole in a Corvette to boot. Bob Headland did the parle-ing at the surrender, because he " ... was the only one amongst the Brits there who spoke any Spanish ... !". When I last saw a mention of Bob in a Daily Telegragh article a few years back, he had become the Director of British Antarctic Survey - Cambridge. He was/is a great guy, for whom I built up a tremendous respect.
Regards
Paul
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A4 wreckage South Jason
Hello Sycamore - Yes I have just seen that 'West View' a few days ago and have referred this to Jualbo via email. That's the place alright, brought back memories too I can tell you, it was high up, around 180 metres I think, when looking at the contour map. Yes I did wonder what that spherical light brownish piece in the foreground was. If only we'd had someone like you on the ground with us that day, rather than just us bunch of clumsy matelots stumbling about tripping over large green UXBs and the like... Well, I guess we did our best under the circumstances.
Many thanks though.
Regards
Paul
Many thanks though.
Regards
Paul
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A4 South Jason
Sycamore - Further to my last, we may differ a little on elevations. I've rechecked my original report notes and I have a pos of 51 12'.3 South 060 53'.1 West. This I remember taking from a chart, together with a couple of hand bearings from peaks. We didn't have GPS then(!), although we were trialling some commercial 'heavy steam powered GPS kit' of some sort, but this was fixed onboard HECATE. Hydrographic shore party mobile kit called a 'Geoceiver' was in use but not by us that day. It weighed a ton, needed heavy batteries and required several satellite passes between 30 and 70 degrees elevation I think, there wern't too many satellites then and corrections had to be applied etc I believe. (I wasn't a qualified 'droggie' either!). Any rate, your GPS fixes may well be slightly different than my plot on the day. Also, wreckage was spread over several hundreds of metres roughly ENE -WSW. My plot puts things about 200m south and 500m or so east of GPS, entirely possible within accuracy of original survey and Easting diifference explicable by wreckage spread. Incidentally, using the 'geoceiver', we proved South Georgia to be about half nautcal mile out from the original chart survey done by Captain Cook no less. Now he had some pretty crude kit, a very basic sextant etc, if not indeed a simple 'backstaff', although I will readily stand corrected if required by a properly qualified 'droggie. I'm thinking Capn James Cook didn't do a bad job after all ... despite the fact that he had been trying to find Antarctica at the time when he bumped into South Georgia instead.
Paul
Paul
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Picture of memorial
Hello Claw -Your photo is of the Naval memorial at San Carlos Water. We paid our respects to it when surveying nearby in Autumn 1982. This was built specefically for the men lost on ANTELOPE and ARDENT.
Paul
Paul
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Herc/Sea King mid air C 1986
sycamore - A slight side step here from the usual, but would you be able to throw any light on the mid air collision involving a Herc and a Navy Sea King, some 50nm North of Pebble Is, I think it was 1986, possibly June?
All 4 Sea King aircrew were lost and I understand the Herc limped back to Stanley with a signifcant chunk of its wing missing, I heard 20', is that possible? The Sea King co-pilot was a mate of mine, we'd served on a Northern Ireland patrol boat together.
It sounded like our old friend - low thick weather with a choppy sea giving a mush on radar. Believe the Sea KIng attached to an RFA had been sent to investigate a factory fishing ship but clobbered the Herc at around the the point where thier patrol line 50-200nm started.
Any info at all would be very much appreciated.
Paul
All 4 Sea King aircrew were lost and I understand the Herc limped back to Stanley with a signifcant chunk of its wing missing, I heard 20', is that possible? The Sea King co-pilot was a mate of mine, we'd served on a Northern Ireland patrol boat together.
It sounded like our old friend - low thick weather with a choppy sea giving a mush on radar. Believe the Sea KIng attached to an RFA had been sent to investigate a factory fishing ship but clobbered the Herc at around the the point where thier patrol line 50-200nm started.
Any info at all would be very much appreciated.
Paul
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Hello all:
Here it´s a link to a webpage with photos with two Dagger crash sites (C-430 and C-437) at Pebble island:
Caída de Volponi - Foros Zona Militar
Regards all
Here it´s a link to a webpage with photos with two Dagger crash sites (C-430 and C-437) at Pebble island:
Caída de Volponi - Foros Zona Militar
Regards all