Bomber Command Memorial (Merged)
I would suggest that we approach the Bicester boys (who are trying to save the Bicester site) and see if we can assume responsibility for the memorial itself, with their support and help, which hopefully that will allow them to focus on the nuts and bolts of saving the site (if thats where we're going to select). If we have support from some players for the memorial in principle, if we get some funding rolling in, then it might make their job easier, if they are able to indicate that they want to place there, a memorial which looks like it will have massive popular support.
http://www.bc-heritage.org/bicester/
Much as I admire what the Bicester boys are doing (I am an ex-Bicester air cadet), I don't think it's the place for a BC memorial. In its long history, Bicester never launched even one operational sortie; it was a training base. If the memorial is going to be at an airfield (and personally I think it should be at the National Memorial in Staffs - neutral ground), then Lincs/Yorks/Cambs should be the choice.
Last edited by snapper41; 12th Nov 2007 at 10:28.
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I’d say there’s only one ‘proper’ place for a Bomber Command Memorial, and that’s Lincolnshire, which leaves quite a choice. Perhaps Swinderby? Gateway to Bomber County, 6 Miles to the A1 and 5 miles to Lincoln. The original Bomber Command runway is still there, and part of this could be used as the Memorial ‘base’. There’s even the old WWII control tower, which could be ‘moved’.
Here’s my starter to argue about.
It would be nice to hear comments from RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF and SAAF. Anyone there?
A black granite wall has engraved the names of 55,000 lost Bomber Command aircrew. At one end of the wall is a group of seven airmen representing a Bomber crew, with one WAAF (and one ground crew). The bronze figures are slightly larger than life size and are positioned so that visitors may walk amongst them. Against the wall is a bronze ladder. A crew member has one foot on the ladder. At the ladder’s top a rectangular hole is cut into the granite representing the entry door to a Bomber Command aircraft. The symbolism being that the crew will soon enter the wall - never to return - but their names will be there forever.
Here’s my starter to argue about.
It would be nice to hear comments from RAF, RCAF, RAAF, RNZAF and SAAF. Anyone there?
A black granite wall has engraved the names of 55,000 lost Bomber Command aircrew. At one end of the wall is a group of seven airmen representing a Bomber crew, with one WAAF (and one ground crew). The bronze figures are slightly larger than life size and are positioned so that visitors may walk amongst them. Against the wall is a bronze ladder. A crew member has one foot on the ladder. At the ladder’s top a rectangular hole is cut into the granite representing the entry door to a Bomber Command aircraft. The symbolism being that the crew will soon enter the wall - never to return - but their names will be there forever.
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Hi Snapper,
To my way of thinking, there are two issues.. that which is dictated by my heart, and that which is dictated by my head. I understand the purity of choosing, as Forget beautifully demonstrates, somewhere like Swinderby, but there are many considerations which will only gain in importance as time marches on.
Capel le Ferme was never a fighter station, but it overlooks the battleground and its somewhere for reflection and it has a tie in, that any single unit never would be able to match. Somewhere on the coast, whether it be Yorkshire or East Anglia has that same evocative potential for the bomber boys. Many crews never fought from Lincs, so if we are to consider the issue of location as being paramount, then it has to apply equally.
Bicester is good in some ways, because it might be soon, a preserved site. It is central and it did have connections with training crews. It also has a sense of continuity, and if, in 100 years time, we want to say with any degree of certainty that the site would still be there, there aren't many better. I see the benefits and advantages of choosing Loncs as the obvious choice. To my mind though, wherever we do eventually decide upon, it will be a compromise, as these things tend to always be. Bicester, as you point out, also has many dissadvantages too.
To my way of thinking, there are two issues.. that which is dictated by my heart, and that which is dictated by my head. I understand the purity of choosing, as Forget beautifully demonstrates, somewhere like Swinderby, but there are many considerations which will only gain in importance as time marches on.
Capel le Ferme was never a fighter station, but it overlooks the battleground and its somewhere for reflection and it has a tie in, that any single unit never would be able to match. Somewhere on the coast, whether it be Yorkshire or East Anglia has that same evocative potential for the bomber boys. Many crews never fought from Lincs, so if we are to consider the issue of location as being paramount, then it has to apply equally.
Bicester is good in some ways, because it might be soon, a preserved site. It is central and it did have connections with training crews. It also has a sense of continuity, and if, in 100 years time, we want to say with any degree of certainty that the site would still be there, there aren't many better. I see the benefits and advantages of choosing Loncs as the obvious choice. To my mind though, wherever we do eventually decide upon, it will be a compromise, as these things tend to always be. Bicester, as you point out, also has many dissadvantages too.
I think you're right over the heart/head issue. My heart would say Lincs, but that would not be right for Yorks or Cambs. I've mentioned it before on this thread, but 8 Gp (Pathfinders) was, by the end of the war, the largest in BC and was based in Cambs; also, don't forget the Halifax crews in Yorks. Using the same argument, I think that to put a memorial at a particular airfield would also be divisive; how do you choose the relative merits of one over another - number of sorties mounted? Losses sustained? Plus, most old airfields already have memorials to the station and/or individual sqns.
My head says the National Memorial Arboretum. Neutral ground, and it is the National focus for remembrance. No problems about having the memorial looked after, or the ground in perpetuity, and it looked good on the TV yesterday! Plus, have a look here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=299903
Read the first post from Fortyodd2.
My head says the National Memorial Arboretum. Neutral ground, and it is the National focus for remembrance. No problems about having the memorial looked after, or the ground in perpetuity, and it looked good on the TV yesterday! Plus, have a look here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=299903
Read the first post from Fortyodd2.
Last edited by snapper41; 12th Nov 2007 at 14:51.
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Indeed.
6 Gp was the Canadian contribution, and they operated from Yorkshire too but none of us are going to be able to present the perfect site. Forget's wall looks stunning. I was thinking the other day.. that, with a statue at Flamborough Head, just outside Bridlington, of a 7 man crew.. looking out to sea would be spine tingling. One would be looking inland maybe, his head turning at the sound of the formation organising itself as it climbed to height. The guys at the front could be searching for crews returning (Bridlington was an IP by all accounts, and has a radar station there to help navigation) and one or two could be sitting down, in reflection.
It would be framed by the setting sun, and sunrise would catch the guys at the front looking for returning (lost) comrades. I came upon Capel by chance once, and it was the sudden unexpected find which caught me unawares. As a result, I was caught short, and boy, even now.. I find that the emotions I felt were all self induced. There was no pomp, there was no pre conditioning.. the simple solitude and dignity of the site struck me to the core. What we did for the fighter lads, we must now do for the Bomber Boys.
The location of the site is in many ways, not important. Lets face it, in 70 years there will be no one left alive who can even remember talking to someone who flew bombers. What is important is that we have somewhere.. anywhere that us safe, dignified and somewhere where we will never forget the 56,000 who died. That they are forgotten and that their sacrifice is forgotten in such a cynical way makes me very sad.
Christ, we talk about the disshonouring of the Military Covenant now? Where was their recognition? It makes me so angry. Why is the RAF at the forefront of organising this? If you'd like to have your say, or help out Snapps, why not get stuck in? Its early days, but insight is always welcome. We have masses of good intentions, loads of enthusiasm and Chuggers has his hands full keeping me in check, so the more the merrier.
http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx
6 Gp was the Canadian contribution, and they operated from Yorkshire too but none of us are going to be able to present the perfect site. Forget's wall looks stunning. I was thinking the other day.. that, with a statue at Flamborough Head, just outside Bridlington, of a 7 man crew.. looking out to sea would be spine tingling. One would be looking inland maybe, his head turning at the sound of the formation organising itself as it climbed to height. The guys at the front could be searching for crews returning (Bridlington was an IP by all accounts, and has a radar station there to help navigation) and one or two could be sitting down, in reflection.
It would be framed by the setting sun, and sunrise would catch the guys at the front looking for returning (lost) comrades. I came upon Capel by chance once, and it was the sudden unexpected find which caught me unawares. As a result, I was caught short, and boy, even now.. I find that the emotions I felt were all self induced. There was no pomp, there was no pre conditioning.. the simple solitude and dignity of the site struck me to the core. What we did for the fighter lads, we must now do for the Bomber Boys.
The location of the site is in many ways, not important. Lets face it, in 70 years there will be no one left alive who can even remember talking to someone who flew bombers. What is important is that we have somewhere.. anywhere that us safe, dignified and somewhere where we will never forget the 56,000 who died. That they are forgotten and that their sacrifice is forgotten in such a cynical way makes me very sad.
Christ, we talk about the disshonouring of the Military Covenant now? Where was their recognition? It makes me so angry. Why is the RAF at the forefront of organising this? If you'd like to have your say, or help out Snapps, why not get stuck in? Its early days, but insight is always welcome. We have masses of good intentions, loads of enthusiasm and Chuggers has his hands full keeping me in check, so the more the merrier.
http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx
Forget
That is very much how I imagined the design from your earlier discription. Could I make a couple of suggestions? Could the wall around the "entrance hatch" be made more fuselage shaped? Perhaps a curve above the door and curve under the door with some panel lines engraved, so that it is easier to see what the hole in the wall represents. A WAAF in trousers in the 1940s????? Surely a skirt in that uniform.
Finally I would not be a fan of placing the memorial in the undershoot of what still has potential to be active. I think that design would look great in somewhere like...well Hyde Park!!
After all we already have:
Australia
http://www.londonlogue.com/places-to...al-london.html
and New Zealand
http://www.londonlogue.com/places-to...al-london.html
and The Commonwealth
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/London...hMemorial.html
That is very much how I imagined the design from your earlier discription. Could I make a couple of suggestions? Could the wall around the "entrance hatch" be made more fuselage shaped? Perhaps a curve above the door and curve under the door with some panel lines engraved, so that it is easier to see what the hole in the wall represents. A WAAF in trousers in the 1940s????? Surely a skirt in that uniform.
Finally I would not be a fan of placing the memorial in the undershoot of what still has potential to be active. I think that design would look great in somewhere like...well Hyde Park!!
After all we already have:
Australia
http://www.londonlogue.com/places-to...al-london.html
and New Zealand
http://www.londonlogue.com/places-to...al-london.html
and The Commonwealth
http://www.roll-of-honour.com/London...hMemorial.html
Actually Al R, any of the Royal Parks would do, gets round the "in perpetuity" problem.
I just thought Hyde Park because Lancaster Gate tube station borders the park
I know. Too corny, I'll get my coat.....
Perhaps St James's Park would be better. Horseguards, RAF Club etc etc.
I just thought Hyde Park because Lancaster Gate tube station borders the park
I know. Too corny, I'll get my coat.....
Perhaps St James's Park would be better. Horseguards, RAF Club etc etc.
Al is right; the significant quality that this memorial must have over all else is longevity. Think of the memorials to the battles won 200 years ago, Trafalgar that saved us from invasion with HMS Victory and Trafalgar Square, Waterloo that secured victory with the Lions Mound at the site and Wellington Arch. We must think in terms of 200 years on. The BoB sites already at Capel and the embankment celebrate our deliverance from invasion once again. The Bomber Command memorials, on location and in London would likewise pay homage to the sacrifice that ensured victory. Even those who believe that is so will know that has been a contentious statement since 1945. That is why the first memorial must reflect Capel, ie in Bomber Command country where acceptance will be greater. Of the sites considered to date I too must confess to the attraction of Flamborough Head. Not an operational base, but a coastal feature that was used inbound and outbound as a turning point, coasting out fix, inbound H2S radar fix. Hard by the Emergency Landing Ground at Carnaby, and the Air Sea Rescue launches at Bridlington it was an important and desperately sought landmark for those aircrews limping home in badly damaged bombers. I can think of no better location, neutral and of shared significance, but the search must go on for even more possible locations so that a run off with all the pros and cons can be held. We have a long way to go, and local knowledge will be the key to final success.
Scroll down the page here:
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?im...tryGB%26sa%3DN
for the original pics.
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Snapper's correct. The model is Miss Phyllis Dike, WAAF.
http://members.aol.com/famjustin/PMilesbio.html
WAAF drivers wore slacks to eliminate the flash of Air Ministry knickers when mounting a 3 tonner.
Including a WAAF driver was Hugh's idea.
I need a photograph of a rigger wearing a leather jerkin. Anyone?
The aircrew shoulder flashes will show RAF (Eagle), Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. One of the aircrew will be West Indian. What else can be woven in?
http://members.aol.com/famjustin/PMilesbio.html
WAAF drivers wore slacks to eliminate the flash of Air Ministry knickers when mounting a 3 tonner.
Including a WAAF driver was Hugh's idea.
I need a photograph of a rigger wearing a leather jerkin. Anyone?The aircrew shoulder flashes will show RAF (Eagle), Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa. One of the aircrew will be West Indian. What else can be woven in?
forget
Sorry I forgot about the female drivers etc. I had visions of a Suzannah York look-a-like from BofB film!!
Another thought though - with regard to the rough concrete signifying the taxiways of WWII airfields could this be designed to look like either the "frying pan" type dispersal or the typical double v shaped dispersals found on so many airfields? (I would post a link to an aerial photo but not from this computer)
Secondly with regard to the 55000 names, did anyone see the recent programme on the building of the Armed Force Memorial? The specialist engravers (based in N. Ireland IIRC) took some significant time to engrave just 16000 names on that monument, without rank or nationality, so we should be under now illusion how long it would take to engrave 55000+. On marble or granite!!
Early days and getting down in the weeds I know, but how would they be ordered? By date of loss? By Squadron (my preference and would allow the engraving of all of the sqn badges)? By nationality? Any other thoughts?
Sorry I forgot about the female drivers etc. I had visions of a Suzannah York look-a-like from BofB film!!
Another thought though - with regard to the rough concrete signifying the taxiways of WWII airfields could this be designed to look like either the "frying pan" type dispersal or the typical double v shaped dispersals found on so many airfields? (I would post a link to an aerial photo but not from this computer)
Secondly with regard to the 55000 names, did anyone see the recent programme on the building of the Armed Force Memorial? The specialist engravers (based in N. Ireland IIRC) took some significant time to engrave just 16000 names on that monument, without rank or nationality, so we should be under now illusion how long it would take to engrave 55000+. On marble or granite!!
Early days and getting down in the weeds I know, but how would they be ordered? By date of loss? By Squadron (my preference and would allow the engraving of all of the sqn badges)? By nationality? Any other thoughts?
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Suzannah York look-a-like? A black suspender belt loses its appeal when it's in bronze. 
55,000 names aren't a problem - they aren't chiselled these days. The individual panels, (4 feet by 4 feet) could be farmed out to more than one company.
Lots of useful stuff from the Vietnam Wall, DC.
http://thewall-usa.com/information.asp
HOW ARE THE NAMES ARRANGED ON THE WALL?
They are in chronological order, according to the date of casualty within each day, the names are alphabetized. For the dead, the date of casualty is the date they were wounded (received in combat) or injured (received in an accident); for the missing, the date they were reported to be missing.
HOW WAS THE PROCESS DONE?
The names were NOT carved by hand, but by a computerized typesetting process called photo stencil gritblasting developed specifically for the Memorial. The process is of a digitized typeface called Optima. It involves a film negative at one-third in size from which an enlargement is made, a film positive (a stencil) at full size. The next step is coating the granite, which has been polished, with a photo sensitive emulsion, and the image is then transferred from the enlargement to the stone in a process very similar to silkscreening. When this step has been completed, the stone within the area of the letters is exposed and the remaining surface is protected by the emulsion.
55,000 names aren't a problem - they aren't chiselled these days. The individual panels, (4 feet by 4 feet) could be farmed out to more than one company.
Lots of useful stuff from the Vietnam Wall, DC.
http://thewall-usa.com/information.asp
HOW ARE THE NAMES ARRANGED ON THE WALL?
They are in chronological order, according to the date of casualty within each day, the names are alphabetized. For the dead, the date of casualty is the date they were wounded (received in combat) or injured (received in an accident); for the missing, the date they were reported to be missing.
HOW WAS THE PROCESS DONE?
The names were NOT carved by hand, but by a computerized typesetting process called photo stencil gritblasting developed specifically for the Memorial. The process is of a digitized typeface called Optima. It involves a film negative at one-third in size from which an enlargement is made, a film positive (a stencil) at full size. The next step is coating the granite, which has been polished, with a photo sensitive emulsion, and the image is then transferred from the enlargement to the stone in a process very similar to silkscreening. When this step has been completed, the stone within the area of the letters is exposed and the remaining surface is protected by the emulsion.
Last edited by forget; 13th Nov 2007 at 16:46.
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I have to admit to some self satisfaction having started this thread off.
I am also extremely grateful to Al R for giving it a significant push and his initiative in setting up the dedicated forum at:
http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx
However, a few points if I may:
1. Could those who have joined in the debate on PPRuNe recently please galvanize their thoughts along with the others on the above link.
2. Could those who have not signed the Government Petition at:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Bomberboys/
please do so ASAP - currently only 436 signatures and sinking fast!
Thanks
Foldie
I am also extremely grateful to Al R for giving it a significant push and his initiative in setting up the dedicated forum at:
http://www.mfipb.com/index.php?mforu...erboys&act=idx
However, a few points if I may:
1. Could those who have joined in the debate on PPRuNe recently please galvanize their thoughts along with the others on the above link.
2. Could those who have not signed the Government Petition at:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Bomberboys/
please do so ASAP - currently only 436 signatures and sinking fast!
Thanks
Foldie
Firstly, well done to foldingwings, Al R and all for their efforts in raising the issue of a long-overdue memorial to all who served in Bomber Command. In my own view, while a memorial on Flamborough Head, similar to that at Capel, has merit, the communications links which would allow visitors to pay their respects are lacking. My preference would be to erect a memorial in or near Harrogate Stonefall War Cemetery, if sufficient space could be found.
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Bridlington is certainly off the beaten track, although its not so remote you can't get to it. Its close to a hub (I imagine) of existing survivors, and would have an impact to those who chance upon it in years to come, that might compel the unprepared soul to think, and to go away with a powerful impression. Thats what I felt after I left Capel for the first time. It stopped me metaphorically, and literally, in my tracks. And to this day my visit and my impressions of the efforts of those it remembers remains vivid.
Harrogate sounds like an interesting option. Have you been there (often)? You infer its quite small? Was there ever a local airfield? I shall have to look it up. On the plus side too, there are shed loads of tea rooms.
Harrogate sounds like an interesting option. Have you been there (often)? You infer its quite small? Was there ever a local airfield? I shall have to look it up. On the plus side too, there are shed loads of tea rooms.
Al R, whilst getting to/from Brid isn't too tricky, Flamborough Head is (from memory) down a narrow road.
Harrogate Stonefall contains, according to CWGC 988 WW2 burials, the vast majority airmen, and around two-thirds Canadian. Local airfields include Dishforth, Leeming, Linton, Tholthorpe and others.
A layout of Stonefall, courtesy of CWGC website;
Harrogate Stonefall Cemetery
I haven't visited the area for some time, but I do recall spending rather a lot of money for a cup of tea and a scone at Betty's. If space in Harrogate is a problem, then perhaps the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington could be considered?
Harrogate Stonefall contains, according to CWGC 988 WW2 burials, the vast majority airmen, and around two-thirds Canadian. Local airfields include Dishforth, Leeming, Linton, Tholthorpe and others.
A layout of Stonefall, courtesy of CWGC website;
Harrogate Stonefall Cemetery
I haven't visited the area for some time, but I do recall spending rather a lot of money for a cup of tea and a scone at Betty's. If space in Harrogate is a problem, then perhaps the Yorkshire Air Museum at Elvington could be considered?
Last edited by diginagain; 14th Nov 2007 at 07:07.
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Elvington has cropped up many times. The problem (although that might be too strong a word, but my brain hasn't woken up yet) is that if we align too closely to one area, we run the risk of alienating those synonymous with another. If we identify Lincs, Yorkshire and Cambs as being the 3 main areas where ops were mounted from, and if we choose one of those 3 to be where the sacrifice will be remembered in perpetuity, do we run the risk of diminishing the efforts of those who flew from either of the other two?
Capel is neutral and was an old arty position funnily enough, which shows that when siting, you don't need (possibly) such an intimate military aviation connection in general, let alone a theatre specific one in particular. What do you think?
I wasn't showing my ignorance about local airfields, I was wondering more if there was one located at Harrogate. The area is peaceful, its easy to get to and it has connections. On the surface of it, its ideal, as all of the choices we have had so far, are. It would too, get support from the Canadians, but on a political note, would alligning ourselves so closely with one particular Commonwealth partner alienate us from the rest? Perhaps I am being too sensitive, perhaps I need that first coffee sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the info about Brid/Flam. A recce is certainly called for soon. Great fish and chips there too.
Capel is neutral and was an old arty position funnily enough, which shows that when siting, you don't need (possibly) such an intimate military aviation connection in general, let alone a theatre specific one in particular. What do you think?
I wasn't showing my ignorance about local airfields, I was wondering more if there was one located at Harrogate. The area is peaceful, its easy to get to and it has connections. On the surface of it, its ideal, as all of the choices we have had so far, are. It would too, get support from the Canadians, but on a political note, would alligning ourselves so closely with one particular Commonwealth partner alienate us from the rest? Perhaps I am being too sensitive, perhaps I need that first coffee sooner rather than later.
Thanks for the info about Brid/Flam. A recce is certainly called for soon. Great fish and chips there too.