RAF Argosy crewing query
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Argosy in the USA
For a time I was flying the Electra for Zantop (EXS contract) out of Willow Run Detroit.
A few of the crews had flown the Argosy in Zantop service mostly on an american military contract (Logair I think?) they all said that for the short range cargo opps it was a superb aircraft, as the cargo moved out of the aft door the new load was being pushed into the front door. The limmiting factor for turnaround time was the speed that the Flight Engineer could get the fuel onto the aircraft.
A few of the crews had flown the Argosy in Zantop service mostly on an american military contract (Logair I think?) they all said that for the short range cargo opps it was a superb aircraft, as the cargo moved out of the aft door the new load was being pushed into the front door. The limmiting factor for turnaround time was the speed that the Flight Engineer could get the fuel onto the aircraft.
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I flew Argosys both on 105 Sqn and 70 Sqn in Akrotiri. 70 was a Hercules Squadron but had 3 Argosies attatched to it.
One, XP444 was fitted out as VVIP for the CinC of NEAF.
XP 402 was a sort of hybrid, sometimes used as VIP transport and sometimes as a frieghter.
One other, 403, maybe, was painted in camouflage and tramped around the Middle East doing all sorts of itinerant jobs; supplying various embassies, dropping paras, pax to NATO meetings, etc.
Flying the Argosy with 2 pilots, one F/Eng a Nav and one or more Loadmasters was just about the most relaxing way to fly for the RAF you could imagine.
Mind you, getting iced up over Tehran one afternoon had its moments of terror!
One, XP444 was fitted out as VVIP for the CinC of NEAF.
XP 402 was a sort of hybrid, sometimes used as VIP transport and sometimes as a frieghter.
One other, 403, maybe, was painted in camouflage and tramped around the Middle East doing all sorts of itinerant jobs; supplying various embassies, dropping paras, pax to NATO meetings, etc.
Flying the Argosy with 2 pilots, one F/Eng a Nav and one or more Loadmasters was just about the most relaxing way to fly for the RAF you could imagine.
Mind you, getting iced up over Tehran one afternoon had its moments of terror!
rubik101:
I hate to be pedantic but XP402 and XP403 were Westland Whirlwinds!
XP412 ended up with 70 Squadron. The other one could either be XP413 (which had the plimsol line on the side after its wetting in Khormaksar) or XP443.
I hate to be pedantic but XP402 and XP403 were Westland Whirlwinds!
XP412 ended up with 70 Squadron. The other one could either be XP413 (which had the plimsol line on the side after its wetting in Khormaksar) or XP443.
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I stand corrected! You are right. I have been looking for my old RAF log book since I wrote with the niggling feeling that i was in error! The Plimsoll line was always a good talking point when we went down route. Considering it was in salt water up to that point (about eye level inside the main cabin) the aircraft behaved very well in the time I flew on it.
What a wonderful crew transport it was!
What a wonderful crew transport it was!
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I remember watching one settle gently onto the grass close to R/w 06 (unusual) at Bex after an asymmetric landing had gone wrong during Mct
(1970?). It must have been well built because all on board walked away without injury apart from dented pride.
Cheers
mcdhu
(1970?). It must have been well built because all on board walked away without injury apart from dented pride.
Cheers
mcdhu
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For all the Argosy fans I would recommend reading Drop Zone Borneo by Roger Annett available at
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/produ...5&cat=0&page=1
Please note this is not an advert but I have read this book and found it a damm good read and brought a lot of memories back of my time at Kutching
http://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/produ...5&cat=0&page=1
Please note this is not an advert but I have read this book and found it a damm good read and brought a lot of memories back of my time at Kutching
mcdhu:
"I remember watching one settle gently on to the grass close to R/W 06..."
I'm going to be pedantic again!
I think you are referring to the demise of XP441 which did indeed depart runway 06 at Benson on 04.06.70. It was, however, less than gentle.
I was inbound from Wildenrath that glorious afternoon in XN850 with the late Archie Coutts in the right seat when we were told by London Control to expect a lengthy delay on arrival as Benson had presently got no fire cover.
On such a nice day that could only mean that the fire department had used up all of their resources!
The captain of XP441 was having a check ride with one of the wing pilots (J.R.). He was on his final landing (very prosaic) with an outboard engine actually shut down. He bounced (that would have been OK) but he decided to go around on 3-engines off the bounce!
The wing pilot took control and might even have got away with it (for the aircraft was very light) but the trainee captain decided to help by pulling the flaps up! This was not a good idea at the time and the aircraft cart-wheeled across the airfield.
I visited the wreckage after landing for I was a training captain on the Squadron involved. One of the engines had detached completely and would have gone through part of Benson village if the chain link fence outside Passey's scrap yard hadn't stopped it. The starboard main leg and wheels had punctured the starboard fuselage side underneath the wing and were now lying in the rear freight doors having flattened most of the passenger seats. Luckily, there were no passengers on board.
All on board survived and the trainee captain finally decided that he did not have a future in Transport Command (or whatever we called it at the time).
A brief description from the Air-Britain publication I have in front of me is:
"Bounced on landing and wing tip hit the ground; broke up, Benson, 4.6.70"
Not quite "settled gently on to the grass".
"I remember watching one settle gently on to the grass close to R/W 06..."
I'm going to be pedantic again!
I think you are referring to the demise of XP441 which did indeed depart runway 06 at Benson on 04.06.70. It was, however, less than gentle.
I was inbound from Wildenrath that glorious afternoon in XN850 with the late Archie Coutts in the right seat when we were told by London Control to expect a lengthy delay on arrival as Benson had presently got no fire cover.
On such a nice day that could only mean that the fire department had used up all of their resources!
The captain of XP441 was having a check ride with one of the wing pilots (J.R.). He was on his final landing (very prosaic) with an outboard engine actually shut down. He bounced (that would have been OK) but he decided to go around on 3-engines off the bounce!
The wing pilot took control and might even have got away with it (for the aircraft was very light) but the trainee captain decided to help by pulling the flaps up! This was not a good idea at the time and the aircraft cart-wheeled across the airfield.
I visited the wreckage after landing for I was a training captain on the Squadron involved. One of the engines had detached completely and would have gone through part of Benson village if the chain link fence outside Passey's scrap yard hadn't stopped it. The starboard main leg and wheels had punctured the starboard fuselage side underneath the wing and were now lying in the rear freight doors having flattened most of the passenger seats. Luckily, there were no passengers on board.
All on board survived and the trainee captain finally decided that he did not have a future in Transport Command (or whatever we called it at the time).
A brief description from the Air-Britain publication I have in front of me is:
"Bounced on landing and wing tip hit the ground; broke up, Benson, 4.6.70"
Not quite "settled gently on to the grass".
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JW 411,
Thanks for putting me right - 37 years is a long time. I was a co on TQF at the time and I just remember looking out of the window of the FW crewroom to see a large cloud of dust/soil which, when it had settled, revealed a bent Argosy and people moving smartly away.
I also remember quite a fierce night in the OM bar that night with 2 very distinct 'factions'.
Regards,
mcdhu
Thanks for putting me right - 37 years is a long time. I was a co on TQF at the time and I just remember looking out of the window of the FW crewroom to see a large cloud of dust/soil which, when it had settled, revealed a bent Argosy and people moving smartly away.
I also remember quite a fierce night in the OM bar that night with 2 very distinct 'factions'.
Regards,
mcdhu
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For those who haven't seen this video, Here is NZ's Safe Air documentary hosted on youtube.
It runs for about 12 minutes and if your internet connection is slow, pause it and let it download before playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCzb0wiWhk
It runs for about 12 minutes and if your internet connection is slow, pause it and let it download before playing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLCzb0wiWhk
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Argosy.
Thanks for the memories Akubra.
I only flew in the Argosy once, but the Bristol Freighter clip will have me awake for several nights. The memories of the cold, and the rain coming in are still there. The heater never worked or you were constantly changing the spark plug on the thing after cleaning it with a wire brush carried for the purpose.
A cross wind was always a challenge for the faint hearted, and for the brave.
The Argosy was a gentlemans carriage by comparison and the best crew transport the RAF ever had!!
There was a kids movie, allegedly taken in Korea, with one of Safe Airs Bristols that had some wonderful flying, both of the Bristol and the NZ Air Force A4 trying to formate in it!!
Sorry a slight hi-jack of the thread.
Speedbird48.
I only flew in the Argosy once, but the Bristol Freighter clip will have me awake for several nights. The memories of the cold, and the rain coming in are still there. The heater never worked or you were constantly changing the spark plug on the thing after cleaning it with a wire brush carried for the purpose.
A cross wind was always a challenge for the faint hearted, and for the brave.
The Argosy was a gentlemans carriage by comparison and the best crew transport the RAF ever had!!
There was a kids movie, allegedly taken in Korea, with one of Safe Airs Bristols that had some wonderful flying, both of the Bristol and the NZ Air Force A4 trying to formate in it!!
Sorry a slight hi-jack of the thread.
Speedbird48.
mcdhu:
"Two very different factions in the bar that night".
That is actually a very astute observation. You probably don't remember it but Flying Training Command had got this great idea of turning the Argosy into a multi-crew trainer when it came out of transport service.
The idea was to have pilots, navigators, flight engineers, AEOs and ALMs all being trained together in one aeroplane at the same time.
The idea was (as are many wonderful MOD-inspired ideas) completely absurd. For example, the pilots wanted to do circuits and bumps but the navigators wanted to do long distance navigation flights etc. etc. etc. It was a great idea but completely impractical.
As a squadron training captain I suddenly got involved with a chap who had been posted in to the squadron but who had not done outstandingly well on his OCU course at Thorney Island.
He was a lovely guy and quite experienced but he had spent his entire (and quite long) flying career on single-seaters or else instructing on an FTS.
It transpired that Flying Training Command had sent him to suss out this multi-training idea for them and the word was put around that he had to succeed.
The poor chap was suddenly thrust into having to look after a 4-engined aeroplane with a 5-man crew flying around the world having never having done anything like it before and all of this as a direct entry captain!
I, and many others, worked very hard on his behalf but the learning curve was just too steep at his age. A moment that still goes through my mind from time to time was an arrival into Trondheim in a snow storm. We did an ILS to the easterly runway to make a circling approach to the westerly runway (the wind was westerly at 30 knots).
As we followed the orange circling lights downwind in the snow, a red and green wooden house with a light on the roof came out of the gloom.
It was above us!
At this stage I thought I had better start intervening for the rest of the crew were getting restive.
"Give me a clue mate, are you going to go round that house to the right or the left"?
"What bloody house"? said he "I'm too busy looking at the instruments"!!!!!!!!
Sadly, I have to report that when Archie and I came back from Wildenrath that beautiful summer afternoon and were warned that we might have a bit of a problem on arrival, I had an outbreak of foreboding and immediately said to Archie "I wonder if this has anything to do with our friend".
It was all a great shame. Luckily, no one got hurt in a physical way but I have often wondered about the poor chap concerned. He was obviously very good at his real job but some peanut in MOD decided to send him into a totally different environment. If you are still going my friend, then good luck to you.
"Two very different factions in the bar that night".
That is actually a very astute observation. You probably don't remember it but Flying Training Command had got this great idea of turning the Argosy into a multi-crew trainer when it came out of transport service.
The idea was to have pilots, navigators, flight engineers, AEOs and ALMs all being trained together in one aeroplane at the same time.
The idea was (as are many wonderful MOD-inspired ideas) completely absurd. For example, the pilots wanted to do circuits and bumps but the navigators wanted to do long distance navigation flights etc. etc. etc. It was a great idea but completely impractical.
As a squadron training captain I suddenly got involved with a chap who had been posted in to the squadron but who had not done outstandingly well on his OCU course at Thorney Island.
He was a lovely guy and quite experienced but he had spent his entire (and quite long) flying career on single-seaters or else instructing on an FTS.
It transpired that Flying Training Command had sent him to suss out this multi-training idea for them and the word was put around that he had to succeed.
The poor chap was suddenly thrust into having to look after a 4-engined aeroplane with a 5-man crew flying around the world having never having done anything like it before and all of this as a direct entry captain!
I, and many others, worked very hard on his behalf but the learning curve was just too steep at his age. A moment that still goes through my mind from time to time was an arrival into Trondheim in a snow storm. We did an ILS to the easterly runway to make a circling approach to the westerly runway (the wind was westerly at 30 knots).
As we followed the orange circling lights downwind in the snow, a red and green wooden house with a light on the roof came out of the gloom.
It was above us!
At this stage I thought I had better start intervening for the rest of the crew were getting restive.
"Give me a clue mate, are you going to go round that house to the right or the left"?
"What bloody house"? said he "I'm too busy looking at the instruments"!!!!!!!!
Sadly, I have to report that when Archie and I came back from Wildenrath that beautiful summer afternoon and were warned that we might have a bit of a problem on arrival, I had an outbreak of foreboding and immediately said to Archie "I wonder if this has anything to do with our friend".
It was all a great shame. Luckily, no one got hurt in a physical way but I have often wondered about the poor chap concerned. He was obviously very good at his real job but some peanut in MOD decided to send him into a totally different environment. If you are still going my friend, then good luck to you.
