Lancaster corkscrew manoeuvre over-rated?

[PAXboy]

Mike7777777

Luftwaffe nightfighters being hunted by Serrate Mosquitos being (probably) hunted by Me262

Actually very few and, as I understand it, only right at the end of the war. For the most part, the Serrate Mosquito was up against the ME110 and the Ju88. I am not at home this weekend and so cannot double check in my father's book but will do so next week.

[Shackman]

It wasn't only used during WWII. I was shown the manoevre during MOTU (by an ex Lanc pilot) as an evasion technique, and rumour has it a 205 Sqn Shack employed it when bounced by a P51 during 'Confrontation' with Indonesia in the 60's. I used it to surprise an RN Phantom that tried to get behind us in the Med later, and finished with some nice photos from the front turret (unfortunately no guns) of said F4 nicely framed! Unfortunately I believe the knowledge of the exercise has now disappeared from the corporate flying knowledge in the RAF (the System Approach to Flying Training - only teach what is essentail, dump everything else).

* * Pertama * *

[PAXboy]

Mike7777777 I have now been able to check the details in my father's book and there is no record of them encountering the ME 262, before VE Day.

My father was in Beaus and Mossies on night fighter operations from the earliest days of the airbourne radar and completed over 100 trips. It may well be that other Night Fighter Squadrons (they were in 141) did meet the 262.

[Davaar]

QUOTE
By September he was transferred as Commanding Officer of III. Gruppe, Jagdgeschwader 26. In March 1945, Krupinski was transferred to the aces unit Jagdverband 44, which flew the Me 262 jet.
UNQUOTE

This from a Google entry on Lt Gen Walter Krupinski, who retrained in part at RAF Valley in 1956. The unit referred to was commanded by General Galland. I have a friend, still alive, who tells me he sat in an Me 262 several times towards the end of the war, ready to go, but they could never take off because of the endless circus of P.51s over their field ready to pounce. On that topic, he once rejoined the circuit traffic at base in an Me 109 downwind as No 2 or No 3 to finals, so it appeared, and to his horror he realised in time the "other" 109s were P.51s. He realised the situation before they did, hit the deck and made his escape.

[PAXboy]

Thanks for that Davaar. Of course 'Jagdgeschwader' were predominantly 'day boys' and the Lancs met the 'Nachtjagdgeschwader'. I see a report on Wikipedia (and this is truncated):

... saw action starting in 1944 in bomber/reconnaissance and fighter/interceptor roles. While the Me 262 had a negligible impact on the course of the war (approximately 150 Allied aircraft losses for 100 Me 262 losses), its design was highly influential on postwar aircraft development.

[papajuliet]

Whilst not strictly about the corkscrew issue it is related - there were always divided opinions amongst "Bomber Boys" as to whether it was better to weave along your course or maintain steady flight.

[SASless]

A brief discussion of the Corkscrew.....

http://www.429sqn.ca/acmem.htm

[Timothy]

Thank you for this, which answers a lot of questions.

It does raise one, though. The pic of the Lanc above shows the nose turret firing, but it occurs to me that in all the reading I have done of that campaign, I have never read any reference to the nose turret in a Lanc, or the nose gun in a Halifax, being used.

Were they?

[Blacksheep]

there were always divided opinions amongst "Bomber Boys" as to whether it was better to weave along your course or maintain steady flight.

I just finished reading a book about the night fighting experiences of John Cunningham's Radar Operator. From what he says, there's no doubt that weaving made it difficult for a night fighter to pick up a good trace, but on the other hand, if they did pick up a 'weaver', it was easier to catch up with their intended victim.

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

he confirmed they did indeed do that.

The Americans did that also with B17 gunships. IIRC though, the program wasn't a grteat success, (possibly due to the extra weight and slower speed) so it was discontinued.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

I think the point that has to borne in mind (and confirmed by the description of WO Tom McLean's action) is that a corkscrew had to VIOLENT to be effective. This was also confirmed by the late Jack Currie (author: Lancaster Target) whom I met just before he died, who said the same.

By the way, Jack has wonderful description in that book of a combat with a 110 in which he corkscrewed for 20 mins or more evading numerous attacks; very tired, he glanced to port to see the 110 off the port wing only few yards away and had to shout at the Mid Upper “for Christ’s sake Protheroe (for ‘twas the Mid Upper’s name) SHOOT THAT BASTARD DOWN!”. Mid Upper promptly opened fire, and the 110 pi$$ed off. The 18 year old mid upper had been so engrossed in passing avoiding action that he had ‘forgotten’ to open fire!!!!! Having read the story, to have it personally relayed to you over a glass or so of Famous Grouse was a (spine chilling) treat and a half.

We are not worthy to lick the boots of these types. Utmost respect, guys.

[Old Hairy]

Very interesting read.I remember on 57Sqn. Victors.doing fighter affil.exercises with Lightnings to check a useless piece of equipment that the AEO interpreted to ascertain if we were being attacked from astern.Our only means to avoid being shot down was yes...............a corkscrew,before the figter pilot called "Bingo".That was the early sixties.Thank the Lord we did not have to go to war. I always remember my first Combat Star check,being asked by the Trapper my first action on receiving the Go Message.I rattled off several answers,to be met with a shake of the head,"Your first action is to eat your sandwiches,before they become radioactive"Before anyone asks why we did not dispense chaff when being attacked,we did once when we returned to base,we found the battery bay full of chaff.Later Mk2 had dispensers mounted on the wing
Old Hairy

[old,not bold]

My father (Lanc pilot) said that a violent corkscrew didn't do him much good when he tried it, and he had 2 years in SLIII to prove it. I didn't ask whether he did it violently, but I suspect so.