DC-4
>Flight engineer? The DC-4 (and its Canadian cousin the DC-4M North Star/Argonaut) was unique for four-engined transports of the era in not having a position for one.
The Midland Argonauts certainly had a flight engineer. My uncle did relief shifts as one. Plus, one was involved in the loss at Stockport. "Taff" Lloyd RIP.
r
The Midland Argonauts certainly had a flight engineer. My uncle did relief shifts as one. Plus, one was involved in the loss at Stockport. "Taff" Lloyd RIP.
r
I don't think the two DC-4/C-54s at North Weald are actually owned by Aces High. It is my understanding that they look after them for an American film company who had them flown into North Weald some years ago (ostensibly to make a film about the Berlin Airlift).
Part of the deal was to run the engines from time to time but a little birdy tells me that the corrosion is now so bad that the Avgas goes straight through the wings on to the ramp so they've given up on that idea.
Part of the deal was to run the engines from time to time but a little birdy tells me that the corrosion is now so bad that the Avgas goes straight through the wings on to the ramp so they've given up on that idea.
Death Cruiser Flight Crew
Midland 331: The DC-4, the DC-4M2 (Argonaut), and the ATL98 Carvair have no dedicated flight-deck position for a flight engineer. In BOAC service, the Argonaut crew was captain, first officer, navigator, radio officer plus three cabin crew.
It is likely, therefore, that if British Midland carried an engineer on their Argonauts, he occupied the then redundant radio officer's seat from which position he could observe the engine and other system instruments, which were all located on the forward and overhead panels.
I quote from 'Horizon' (the magazine of BOAC Flight Operations) for December 1968 detailing certain staff changes in Flight Engineering Management: "Gordon was with BSAA as Maintenance Engineer, and after the merger he found himself in BOAC on Argonauts. They, you remember, were those peculiar aeroplanes which didn't have a Flight Engineer, and with his A and C licences Gordon did a lot of flying on off-schedule operations where the absence of skilled engineering would have ground the whole works to a stop if trouble arose."
It clearly makes sense to carry an engineer on this type of aircraft and ad-hoc style of operation. However, he/she isn't a 'required member of operating crew' for certification purposes, which is quite unique for the period when the type was in its prime.
It is likely, therefore, that if British Midland carried an engineer on their Argonauts, he occupied the then redundant radio officer's seat from which position he could observe the engine and other system instruments, which were all located on the forward and overhead panels.
I quote from 'Horizon' (the magazine of BOAC Flight Operations) for December 1968 detailing certain staff changes in Flight Engineering Management: "Gordon was with BSAA as Maintenance Engineer, and after the merger he found himself in BOAC on Argonauts. They, you remember, were those peculiar aeroplanes which didn't have a Flight Engineer, and with his A and C licences Gordon did a lot of flying on off-schedule operations where the absence of skilled engineering would have ground the whole works to a stop if trouble arose."
It clearly makes sense to carry an engineer on this type of aircraft and ad-hoc style of operation. However, he/she isn't a 'required member of operating crew' for certification purposes, which is quite unique for the period when the type was in its prime.
Last edited by Georgeablelovehowindia; 22nd Feb 2007 at 10:31.
>clawing their way off Speke Airport on full song
My father, a WWII RAF mechanic, so well-versed on many Merlin-equipped types, always thought the Argonaut sounded and looked "laboured".
During his time at Midland, his workshop was close to the former 10 threshold at Castle Don.,, so he had frequent chance to get an earful.
Time to start an "Argonaut/North Star" thread, I think...
r
My father, a WWII RAF mechanic, so well-versed on many Merlin-equipped types, always thought the Argonaut sounded and looked "laboured".
During his time at Midland, his workshop was close to the former 10 threshold at Castle Don.,, so he had frequent chance to get an earful.
Time to start an "Argonaut/North Star" thread, I think...
r
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DC-4.
No, a flight engineer is not required.
A slow climber, 120 KIAS, and were easily passed by the F.27's that I flew in Libya years ago.
My dear 'ole Dad was assistant project engineering manager on the type at Douglas, and he went on to become project engineer on the DC-6/7 some years later.
The DC-4 has a 2400 NM range, if long range tanks are fitted.
It was quite the aeroplane at the beginning of the war, and was a real workhorse of the USAF fleet.
The original design, the DC-4E was pressurized, and had a triple tail, ala Constellation, but was downsized later in development.
It is interesting to note that the same wing was used on the DC-6 and DC-7, a truly remarkable design.
DC-4, cruised at 200 knots.
DC-6 cruised at 260 knots.
DC-7 cruised at 315 knots.
Same wing (altho strengthened), just more BHP.
No, a flight engineer is not required.
A slow climber, 120 KIAS, and were easily passed by the F.27's that I flew in Libya years ago.
My dear 'ole Dad was assistant project engineering manager on the type at Douglas, and he went on to become project engineer on the DC-6/7 some years later.
The DC-4 has a 2400 NM range, if long range tanks are fitted.
It was quite the aeroplane at the beginning of the war, and was a real workhorse of the USAF fleet.
The original design, the DC-4E was pressurized, and had a triple tail, ala Constellation, but was downsized later in development.
It is interesting to note that the same wing was used on the DC-6 and DC-7, a truly remarkable design.
DC-4, cruised at 200 knots.
DC-6 cruised at 260 knots.
DC-7 cruised at 315 knots.
Same wing (altho strengthened), just more BHP.
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Peterpallet - DC4 Fond memories
Coincidentally, there is an article in the current 'Propliner' on Transmeridian, from which I've gleaned that Capt. A.H. 'Ben' Benson was a founder and Managing Director with Capt. A.J. Burridge as Chief Pilot.
Considering your pilot referred to himself as the owner, I would suggest it may well have been Capt. Benson flying you.
Cheers
Southender
Considering your pilot referred to himself as the owner, I would suggest it may well have been Capt. Benson flying you.
Cheers
Southender
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<<Very early seventies, HD, and Libya was quite a pleasant place, then.>>
OK.. I left there around March, 1970. I worked Tripoli Tower and Tripoli Control so we may well have "talked"! Lot of great American pilots out there with the oil companies (and also with the USAF at Wheelus) - best I ever worked with.. F-27s I recall were Linair (OY-DNF and 'DHW), N10624 of Oasis Oil and N2614 of Mobil.. but there were probably more.
We had a good few DC-4s through in those days. N3454 was with LAVCO. Best I saw was 9T-THZ of the Congo Air Force.
OK.. I left there around March, 1970. I worked Tripoli Tower and Tripoli Control so we may well have "talked"! Lot of great American pilots out there with the oil companies (and also with the USAF at Wheelus) - best I ever worked with.. F-27s I recall were Linair (OY-DNF and 'DHW), N10624 of Oasis Oil and N2614 of Mobil.. but there were probably more.
We had a good few DC-4s through in those days. N3454 was with LAVCO. Best I saw was 9T-THZ of the Congo Air Force.
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N10625 and PH-FPL from Oasis were the ones I flew, HD.
Oxy had one also, can't remember the registration.
N2614 was indeed Mobil's aeroplane, but it was a Fairchild variety, not a Fokker.
Esso blew us all away with their Convair 580, simply can't compete with 4000 horses and the resultant 315 KTAS, vs 246 KTAS for the F.27's.
Left the Fokkers in the dust like we were dragging a boat anchor.
Oasis contemplated an F.28, but passed on the opportunity...
The Oasis chief pilot was the best I have ever worked for, a really nice guy.
Oxy had one also, can't remember the registration.
N2614 was indeed Mobil's aeroplane, but it was a Fairchild variety, not a Fokker.
Esso blew us all away with their Convair 580, simply can't compete with 4000 horses and the resultant 315 KTAS, vs 246 KTAS for the F.27's.
Left the Fokkers in the dust like we were dragging a boat anchor.
Oasis contemplated an F.28, but passed on the opportunity...
The Oasis chief pilot was the best I have ever worked for, a really nice guy.
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I thought so..... There is a DC-4/C-54 at Archerfield, Queensland, Australia, which has not flown for some considerable time:
VH PAF
Power Driven Aeroplane with tricycle-retractable landing gear
4 Piston engines
Manufacturer: MCDONNELL DOUGLAS CORP.
Model: C54E-DC
Serial number: 27352
Aircraft first registered in Australia: 31 January 1996
Full Registration
VH PAF
Power Driven Aeroplane with tricycle-retractable landing gear
4 Piston engines
Manufacturer: MCDONNELL DOUGLAS CORP.
Model: C54E-DC
Serial number: 27352
Aircraft first registered in Australia: 31 January 1996
Full Registration
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For nostalgia's sake...
Here's a clip of a Buffalo Airways DC-4 doing a flashy departure...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEj9u9Fby8o
Great sound of the engines, by the way!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEj9u9Fby8o
Great sound of the engines, by the way!
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Ahhh, lovely! You can't beat the rumble of radials. Except for Griffons and Merlins of course...
I'll mak siccar
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QUOTE
The Midland Argonauts certainly had a flight engineer. My uncle did relief shifts as one. Plus, one was involved in the loss at Stockport. "Taff" Lloyd RIP.
UNQUOTE
No, to be accurate, Midland, Hotel Golf did not carry a flight engineer.
Mr Lloyd was "an experienced although not certificated ground engineer......He flew in Hotel Golf in order to perform ground engineer's duties when the aircraft was away from its home station. He had no duties to perform in the air, but in order to help out, not as a matter of duty, he filled in instrument readings in the technical log and instrument and fuel logs, and if asked to do so by the Captain or First Officer would move control levers or switches in flight, for example the radiator shutter controls, and the fuel booster pump switches during the approach check".
"Apart from such very limited help in flight as they might request and receive from the ground engineers the Captain and First Officer on Argonaut aircraft in British Midland shared the whole workload of flying, navigation, radio communication, engine handling and system management".
And so on.
The ARB "now require" that "as part of its minimum crew the Argonaut shall carry a third pilot or qualified flight engineer ...."
All of the quotations above in inverted commas are taken from the Board of Trade Report of 7 May, 1968, by Mr Justice Peter Bristow, into the accident to G-ALHG on 4 June, 1967.
The Midland Argonauts certainly had a flight engineer. My uncle did relief shifts as one. Plus, one was involved in the loss at Stockport. "Taff" Lloyd RIP.
UNQUOTE
No, to be accurate, Midland, Hotel Golf did not carry a flight engineer.
Mr Lloyd was "an experienced although not certificated ground engineer......He flew in Hotel Golf in order to perform ground engineer's duties when the aircraft was away from its home station. He had no duties to perform in the air, but in order to help out, not as a matter of duty, he filled in instrument readings in the technical log and instrument and fuel logs, and if asked to do so by the Captain or First Officer would move control levers or switches in flight, for example the radiator shutter controls, and the fuel booster pump switches during the approach check".
"Apart from such very limited help in flight as they might request and receive from the ground engineers the Captain and First Officer on Argonaut aircraft in British Midland shared the whole workload of flying, navigation, radio communication, engine handling and system management".
And so on.
The ARB "now require" that "as part of its minimum crew the Argonaut shall carry a third pilot or qualified flight engineer ...."
All of the quotations above in inverted commas are taken from the Board of Trade Report of 7 May, 1968, by Mr Justice Peter Bristow, into the accident to G-ALHG on 4 June, 1967.
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Aer Turas
Ah....nostalgia,
I rember seeing the Aer Turas DC-4 at Manchester whilst working there as an ATCO in 1965.
I was Runway controller there one day and there was an Aer Turas B170 at the holding point. As he was cleared line up and take off I noticed something fluttering from the control services. I said to him, Check for full and free movement. He stopped, the door opened and a man jumped out. After waving the control locks at me and re-embarking, they went on their way.
Dave Humphreys (LATCC et al Retired)
I rember seeing the Aer Turas DC-4 at Manchester whilst working there as an ATCO in 1965.
I was Runway controller there one day and there was an Aer Turas B170 at the holding point. As he was cleared line up and take off I noticed something fluttering from the control services. I said to him, Check for full and free movement. He stopped, the door opened and a man jumped out. After waving the control locks at me and re-embarking, they went on their way.
Dave Humphreys (LATCC et al Retired)