27 Ltr V12 - Why cant we build one??
Thread Starter
27 Ltr V12 - Why cant we build one??
Over the last few months I have been looking at the warbird scene. It appears that Flugwek in Germany are going to build new P-51 Mustang airframes to be operated under the experimental category. Thewy apparently will be identical to the Mustang airframe but not called a Mustang for obvious reasons.
So why couldnt someone design a 27 Ltr V12, using modern materials and technology (alloys, fuel injection etc). It wouldnt be a Merlin but would bolt on as a direct swap.
Surely if Farrari, McClaren, etc can build runs of 150 engines for their exclusive models, we could do the same for warbirds. Lots of engine designers around, Thielert can build any companents, just give them the blueprints. Sure it would cost but so does an F40 or Mclaren F1.
So why couldnt someone design a 27 Ltr V12, using modern materials and technology (alloys, fuel injection etc). It wouldnt be a Merlin but would bolt on as a direct swap.
Surely if Farrari, McClaren, etc can build runs of 150 engines for their exclusive models, we could do the same for warbirds. Lots of engine designers around, Thielert can build any companents, just give them the blueprints. Sure it would cost but so does an F40 or Mclaren F1.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: due south
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The answer is in the first four words of your last sentence.
Motor sport, in particular motor racing, attracts massive sponsorship and TV funding, where is the equivalent in warbird flying ?
Motor sport, in particular motor racing, attracts massive sponsorship and TV funding, where is the equivalent in warbird flying ?
Thread Starter
We're not talking using F1 engines, or tech, just casting components to build a 1650 cubic inch V12. Its only 55 hp per litre to make 1500 hp out of 27 ltrs. Should be quite achievable given the state of the art in engine building, casting and machining.
There are ooodles of small engineering shops round the world designing and building their own engines, so it doesnt seem out of the question.
There are ooodles of small engineering shops round the world designing and building their own engines, so it doesnt seem out of the question.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agaricus bisporus
Better still do a google for Piper PA-48 / Piper enforcer, seems Piper bought the rights to produce the P51 airframe in the early eighties and strapped a 2455shp lycoming T55 turboprop in the nose.
Must of been an awsome machine, shame they only built two
Better still do a google for Piper PA-48 / Piper enforcer, seems Piper bought the rights to produce the P51 airframe in the early eighties and strapped a 2455shp lycoming T55 turboprop in the nose.
Must of been an awsome machine, shame they only built two
Spoon PPRuNerist & Mad Inistrator
From the 1972 Observer's Book of Aircraft:
"The Piper PE-1 Enforcer was a structurally redesigned, newly-tooled development of the WWII NA P-51 Mustang, and was essentially a new aircraft, having no component commonality with the original Mustang. Development of the Enforcer was taken over by the Piper Aircraft Corporation from Cavalier Aircraft in 1970 and the first of 2 prototypes flew on April 29 1971, with the second in June 1971.
With the 2535 hp Lycoming T55-L-9 turboprop its performance was similar to the piston P-51 - Max clean 460 mph at 20,000 feet, with typical ordnance 432 mph and max cruise of 370 mph. Max range was just under 3000 miles."
Of course it did that on Avtur
And it had the ugliest exhaust stub in the history of aviation!
SD
"The Piper PE-1 Enforcer was a structurally redesigned, newly-tooled development of the WWII NA P-51 Mustang, and was essentially a new aircraft, having no component commonality with the original Mustang. Development of the Enforcer was taken over by the Piper Aircraft Corporation from Cavalier Aircraft in 1970 and the first of 2 prototypes flew on April 29 1971, with the second in June 1971.
With the 2535 hp Lycoming T55-L-9 turboprop its performance was similar to the piston P-51 - Max clean 460 mph at 20,000 feet, with typical ordnance 432 mph and max cruise of 370 mph. Max range was just under 3000 miles."
Of course it did that on Avtur
And it had the ugliest exhaust stub in the history of aviation!
SD
Thread Starter
You're all missing the point. If i wanted a PT6 I;d go buy a Meridian or TBM-850.
Doesnt an engine thats in the experimental category not have to go through the certification process?
If a new Merlin engine cant be bult, i want something that will take its place.
Doesnt an engine thats in the experimental category not have to go through the certification process?
If a new Merlin engine cant be bult, i want something that will take its place.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nooo, you can't just lob in a turbo prop. They may have the power, but they have no soul.
Creating something like a Merlin from scratch is of course possible, but has anyone got the spare millions available to do it? Is there really a market for something like that?
Unfortunately I think the answer is always going to be no.
Creating something like a Merlin from scratch is of course possible, but has anyone got the spare millions available to do it? Is there really a market for something like that?
Unfortunately I think the answer is always going to be no.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: SX in SX in UK
Posts: 1,082
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are two paths to go down here, either buy the design rights to a V12 or design one from scratch.
If you buy the rights, then you have to use the original 1940s materials. Changing to a 21st century material which may not be a direct equivalent, would require re-certification.
The cost of tooling would be exorbitant bearing in mind the size of the market.
Which particular mark of V12 would you decide to make? Its all very well saying 'lets make a Merlin', but I suspect that if you looked at 50 Merlin powered aircraft today, not more than 5 would share the same Mark of engine.
If you decide to make design one from scratch, the development and tooling costs would be astronomical, running into £million.
If you buy the rights, then you have to use the original 1940s materials. Changing to a 21st century material which may not be a direct equivalent, would require re-certification.
The cost of tooling would be exorbitant bearing in mind the size of the market.
Which particular mark of V12 would you decide to make? Its all very well saying 'lets make a Merlin', but I suspect that if you looked at 50 Merlin powered aircraft today, not more than 5 would share the same Mark of engine.
If you decide to make design one from scratch, the development and tooling costs would be astronomical, running into £million.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Lancs. UK
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember some American gentleman telling me that there was a lot of support for the Napier Sabre still available, due to some use in what he called 'Open Class Air Racing'.
The Merlin was one of the greatest engines of all time, and had 'the name', but the Sabre and it's brother in spirit the Centaurus were probably the last word in aero piston engines.
Sabre engined Mustang anyone?
(Pigeons target locked, cat released)
Alf
The Merlin was one of the greatest engines of all time, and had 'the name', but the Sabre and it's brother in spirit the Centaurus were probably the last word in aero piston engines.
Sabre engined Mustang anyone?
(Pigeons target locked, cat released)
Alf
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,636
Received 300 Likes
on
168 Posts
I think he was referring to Unlimited air racing in the USA - most of the racers are either Merlin or Griffon powered Mustangs, or Sea Furies re-engined with R-3350s. Still a couple of Bearcats going as well, and some Yaks. There are three or four specialist engine shops in the US "churning" out rebuilt race-tuned Merlins for the speed freaks.
The only potential Napier Sabre powered flyer I can think of is Kermit Weeks' Tempest currently undergoing rebuild with PPS at Booker. Whether it actually will fly is doubtful.
The only potential Napier Sabre powered flyer I can think of is Kermit Weeks' Tempest currently undergoing rebuild with PPS at Booker. Whether it actually will fly is doubtful.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: due south
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brian Abraham: See here. http://www.thundermustang.com/falconer.htm
Grandpa Aerotart
I saw the one and only Kiwi Thunder Mustang flying at Ardmore a week or so ago....VERY sexy!
Interesting that ALL the high end performance specs are within a knot or two of the original..except Rate of Climb which goes close to being twice the original...cost of ownership and DOCs are a different matter.
http://www.kiwithunder.com/
Interesting that ALL the high end performance specs are within a knot or two of the original..except Rate of Climb which goes close to being twice the original...cost of ownership and DOCs are a different matter.
http://www.kiwithunder.com/