Yeager not the first.
Agaricus bisporus
There's a couple of other posters above having a bit of a tongue-in-cheek joke at Pearse's expense.
Pearse flew a sustained & controlled flight for about 900 yards in early 1903. He also had flight of hundreds of yards long in 1902.
Yes, all before the Wright brothers.
Read more here.
There's a couple of other posters above having a bit of a tongue-in-cheek joke at Pearse's expense.
Pearse flew a sustained & controlled flight for about 900 yards in early 1903. He also had flight of hundreds of yards long in 1902.
Yes, all before the Wright brothers.
Read more here.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: London
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have, as is often the case with this forum, found this a very interesting thread.
History is almost always written by the winners and in this case the X1 did break the Sound Barrier in straight and level flight. But I am not surprised that prior to this historic event others did so in a dive (and got away with it :-).
The Wright Brothers may not have been the first, but to mangle Terry Pratchetts words:
An Explorer is someone who is the first to dicover a new land, except for the people who live there, people who visit on business and those who got lost, none of whom tell the media, or write books about it.
The Wright Brother did get the the News out and despite a slow start their PR improved rapidly so they 'won' the place in history prize!
As for the X1 and M.52 This was an era when HMG for a variety of reasons was more than willing to give away what is now described as Intellectual Property especially to our then biggest creditor the USA. So it doesn't come as any surprise if Bell had access to the data Miles had worked so hard to obtain. Whilst giving our IP to the US may have had some return benefit, sending Nene's to Russia, I have never understood (Topic Drift).
DIH
History is almost always written by the winners and in this case the X1 did break the Sound Barrier in straight and level flight. But I am not surprised that prior to this historic event others did so in a dive (and got away with it :-).
The Wright Brothers may not have been the first, but to mangle Terry Pratchetts words:
An Explorer is someone who is the first to dicover a new land, except for the people who live there, people who visit on business and those who got lost, none of whom tell the media, or write books about it.
The Wright Brother did get the the News out and despite a slow start their PR improved rapidly so they 'won' the place in history prize!
As for the X1 and M.52 This was an era when HMG for a variety of reasons was more than willing to give away what is now described as Intellectual Property especially to our then biggest creditor the USA. So it doesn't come as any surprise if Bell had access to the data Miles had worked so hard to obtain. Whilst giving our IP to the US may have had some return benefit, sending Nene's to Russia, I have never understood (Topic Drift).
DIH
JetBlast member 2005.
JetBlast member 2006.
Banned 2007
JetBlast member 2006.
Banned 2007
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The US of A - sort of
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I thought a German pilot in an Me262 had traversed the barrier before hostilities ended. I remember following a link on prune about this.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember following a link on prune about this
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...5&postcount=11
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: due south
Posts: 1,332
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The link, http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...y/q0198c.shtml by 18-Wheeler, would seem to disprove the claim that the 262 was capable of supersonic flight.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having met Mr. Yeager on a couple of occasions and heard hm talk on his flying exploits I am convinced of one thing irrespective of who was first through Mach 1. Even at his advanced age he has the biggest ego of any pilot I have ever encountered. That he had a fair degree of "the Right Stuff" is not in question. I just find his attitude rather unpalatable.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me262. Hmm, I thought that the critical discovery that made the Sound Barrier breakable was the all-flying tailplane, or stabilator for aerodynamic reasons that someone else will no doubt explain. I had understood that without this innovation control could not be maintained thru M1. The Me262 was not so equipped, was it?
Miles design pinched by Bell. Any evidence to support this? Seems unlikely, most of the great technical advances of the last century were arrived at virtually simultaneously in different parts of the world by different people, see Radio, Radar, Jet Engine, Aeroplane etc etc, and many, if not most were very very similar in design. (Unless I've misunderstood and UK Govt gave USG the plans when the Miles was canx, but I don't have the relevant dates at hand to judge that possibility, which in any case is hardly copying, certainly not pinching, if the data was given freely)
Bell X1 was rocket powered, Miles was jet, wasn't it, with pilot prone in a cone inside an annular intake? Not too similar at first glance, anyway. Of course they were roughly the same shape, if you wanted to fly faster than sound you'd model your craft on the only things you knew were stabe at supersonic speeds, ie a rifle bullet and the V2.
Love to see some evidence though...
Miles design pinched by Bell. Any evidence to support this? Seems unlikely, most of the great technical advances of the last century were arrived at virtually simultaneously in different parts of the world by different people, see Radio, Radar, Jet Engine, Aeroplane etc etc, and many, if not most were very very similar in design. (Unless I've misunderstood and UK Govt gave USG the plans when the Miles was canx, but I don't have the relevant dates at hand to judge that possibility, which in any case is hardly copying, certainly not pinching, if the data was given freely)
Bell X1 was rocket powered, Miles was jet, wasn't it, with pilot prone in a cone inside an annular intake? Not too similar at first glance, anyway. Of course they were roughly the same shape, if you wanted to fly faster than sound you'd model your craft on the only things you knew were stabe at supersonic speeds, ie a rifle bullet and the V2.
Love to see some evidence though...
Tabs please !
The "exchange" of research data with our transatlantic chums is well documented. Amongst various references available on the web is this from Wikipedia
In 1944 design work was considered 90% complete, and Miles was told to go ahead with the construction of three prototype M.52's. Later that year the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. The Bell Aircraft company was given all of the drawings and research on the M.52, but the US reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return. Unbeknownst to Miles, Bell had already started construction of a rocket powered supersonic design of their own, but were battling the problem of control. The Miles all-moving tail proved to be the solution to their problems.
At least we are still the only country to exceed Mach 1 on the ground
In 1944 design work was considered 90% complete, and Miles was told to go ahead with the construction of three prototype M.52's. Later that year the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. The Bell Aircraft company was given all of the drawings and research on the M.52, but the US reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return. Unbeknownst to Miles, Bell had already started construction of a rocket powered supersonic design of their own, but were battling the problem of control. The Miles all-moving tail proved to be the solution to their problems.
At least we are still the only country to exceed Mach 1 on the ground
Last edited by B Fraser; 2nd May 2006 at 07:36.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Murica.
Age: 45
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
regarding Yeager
I did a recurrency flight a couple of years ago with a member of the FSDO in Nevada. They were responsible for the safety on one of the big airshows over there, and Yeager was scheduled to fly.
They had a briefing for all the pilots scheduled to fly, and in this meeting Yeager got pissed that he wasn't scheduled to fly first. He started to tell everyone off, and asking if they didn't know who he was. He demanded to fly first, with no other planes taxiing or doing any kind of operation that would either detract from his performance or drown out the narrator.
They tried to reason with him, that they had other planes that needed to fly first for logistic reasons and whatever..but he just went into a complete egotrip and started to yell at everyone there that he was the greatest aviator known to man and was expected to fly first.
It all ended with him flying last, and only being approved for straight and level passes down the display line.
Not sure what year this happened.
All in all, I am happy the true story of the "sound barrier" is coming to light. Maybe this guy can calm down a little.
They had a briefing for all the pilots scheduled to fly, and in this meeting Yeager got pissed that he wasn't scheduled to fly first. He started to tell everyone off, and asking if they didn't know who he was. He demanded to fly first, with no other planes taxiing or doing any kind of operation that would either detract from his performance or drown out the narrator.
They tried to reason with him, that they had other planes that needed to fly first for logistic reasons and whatever..but he just went into a complete egotrip and started to yell at everyone there that he was the greatest aviator known to man and was expected to fly first.
It all ended with him flying last, and only being approved for straight and level passes down the display line.
Not sure what year this happened.
All in all, I am happy the true story of the "sound barrier" is coming to light. Maybe this guy can calm down a little.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: London
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeager was never a boyhood hero of mine, but because of 'his place in history' I have been following the thread with some interest.
Following the trend that has emerged during the postings, I started to think about why Yeager was selected from the pool of experienced test pilots to fly what was hoped was going to be a historic flight:
q) Should we try it out with a chimp first ?
a) No the automated systems we need won't be available for at least 2 decades!
q) So we need a good pilot to go, where no one has proof they have gone before?
a) Yes a really skilled pilot!
q) We are going to drop him from another aircraft, in a machine is is 80% extremely volatile fuel. That could just blow up?
a) Yes
q) Who has the skill, but we can afford to lose?
a) Yeager
q) Agreed, but what if he succeeds?
a) I guess he willl become a hero!
q) What if he doesn't succeed?
a) I guess the he will become a hero for a while. But we should learn enough that the next guy will make it and he will be a hero for the rest of his life.
q) Hmm Yeager it is. Shame about the chimp we'll just have to settle for the chump. But if he makes it won't he be impossible to live with?
a) Well there are other very experimental designs he could test!
I am sure that is NOT how it was done, but!!
Following the trend that has emerged during the postings, I started to think about why Yeager was selected from the pool of experienced test pilots to fly what was hoped was going to be a historic flight:
q) Should we try it out with a chimp first ?
a) No the automated systems we need won't be available for at least 2 decades!
q) So we need a good pilot to go, where no one has proof they have gone before?
a) Yes a really skilled pilot!
q) We are going to drop him from another aircraft, in a machine is is 80% extremely volatile fuel. That could just blow up?
a) Yes
q) Who has the skill, but we can afford to lose?
a) Yeager
q) Agreed, but what if he succeeds?
a) I guess he willl become a hero!
q) What if he doesn't succeed?
a) I guess the he will become a hero for a while. But we should learn enough that the next guy will make it and he will be a hero for the rest of his life.
q) Hmm Yeager it is. Shame about the chimp we'll just have to settle for the chump. But if he makes it won't he be impossible to live with?
a) Well there are other very experimental designs he could test!
I am sure that is NOT how it was done, but!!
Gnome de PPRuNe
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Too close to Croydon for comfort
Age: 60
Posts: 12,637
Received 300 Likes
on
168 Posts
Apparently it could have been Bob Hoover, but for a spat with his boss!
But I like you scenario Opssys!
But I like you scenario Opssys!
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Interesting discussion re Yeager at http://collectspace.com/ubb/Forum34/HTML/000040.html
All his peers respected his stick and rudder flying abilities but it seems his reputation was built around his willingness to dive in where angels feared to tread and get away with it (most times - see nf104 spin/bail out). Also he was very well connected politically (eg Le May) but didnt have the education to compete with his peers who mostly (Armstrong, Crossfield etc) saw themselves as aircraft designers, engineers, aerodynamicists rather than "test pilots". Much in the same vein as the original Wright brothers who were first and foremost engineers in solving the problems of flight. So perhaps the right stuff might be replaced by "Wright stuff" when talking of the qualities to look for in a test pilot. Yeagers own web site is mostly devoted to testimonials - look how good I am/was.
All his peers respected his stick and rudder flying abilities but it seems his reputation was built around his willingness to dive in where angels feared to tread and get away with it (most times - see nf104 spin/bail out). Also he was very well connected politically (eg Le May) but didnt have the education to compete with his peers who mostly (Armstrong, Crossfield etc) saw themselves as aircraft designers, engineers, aerodynamicists rather than "test pilots". Much in the same vein as the original Wright brothers who were first and foremost engineers in solving the problems of flight. So perhaps the right stuff might be replaced by "Wright stuff" when talking of the qualities to look for in a test pilot. Yeagers own web site is mostly devoted to testimonials - look how good I am/was.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do I detect the aroma of sour grapes here?
Yeager was undoubtably not highly educated but was clearly a very intelligent guy ot he could not have got where he did. My feelings are that he was a simply brilliant stick and rudder man and what's more one with an almost uncanny ability to judge an aircraft's limits by the seat of his pants, and go there, and come back with all the data the test engineers wanted. That is a rare skill. But he was one of the last of his ilk, time saw to that.
He was, however, overtaken by the graduate engineers and aerodynamicists as the problems of pushing the boundaries became ever more technical, even more dangerous, and also harder to judge by "feel". There is no doubt he was also something of a loose cannon at times with an almost equal disregard for military discipline as the fool who got into an F86 and dived it supersonic on it's first flight, which seems to me to be an act of supreme folly and irresponsibility. He was/is also a consumate self-publicist which seems to annoy some people in UK and Europe, but less so in US, I think, where he is still remembered as the all-american hero from the backwoods who did good in the Air Force and sold a lot of car parts on TV.
The fact is he is one of the most highly skilled pilots there has ever been and it seems a pity that on this forum, of all places, some of us see fit to run him down.
I still think that a self-powered (as opposed to gravity powered) record is still the one to admire, so leaving aside Richard Pierce (!) or those Me262s that can never be proven then Yeager is the one who takes the prize.
Yeager was undoubtably not highly educated but was clearly a very intelligent guy ot he could not have got where he did. My feelings are that he was a simply brilliant stick and rudder man and what's more one with an almost uncanny ability to judge an aircraft's limits by the seat of his pants, and go there, and come back with all the data the test engineers wanted. That is a rare skill. But he was one of the last of his ilk, time saw to that.
He was, however, overtaken by the graduate engineers and aerodynamicists as the problems of pushing the boundaries became ever more technical, even more dangerous, and also harder to judge by "feel". There is no doubt he was also something of a loose cannon at times with an almost equal disregard for military discipline as the fool who got into an F86 and dived it supersonic on it's first flight, which seems to me to be an act of supreme folly and irresponsibility. He was/is also a consumate self-publicist which seems to annoy some people in UK and Europe, but less so in US, I think, where he is still remembered as the all-american hero from the backwoods who did good in the Air Force and sold a lot of car parts on TV.
The fact is he is one of the most highly skilled pilots there has ever been and it seems a pity that on this forum, of all places, some of us see fit to run him down.
I still think that a self-powered (as opposed to gravity powered) record is still the one to admire, so leaving aside Richard Pierce (!) or those Me262s that can never be proven then Yeager is the one who takes the prize.
JetBlast member 2005.
JetBlast member 2006.
Banned 2007
JetBlast member 2006.
Banned 2007
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The US of A - sort of
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Me262. Hmm, I thought that the critical discovery that made the Sound Barrier breakable was the all-flying tailplane, or stabilator for aerodynamic reasons that someone else will no doubt explain. I had understood that without this innovation control could not be maintained thru M1. The Me262 was not so equipped, was it?
Aviator Extraordinaire
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma USA
Age: 76
Posts: 2,394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I know Yeager was the only post WWII US Air Force General that did not have a College Degree.
I have never meet the man, however, I know some people who have.
Sad to say they did not have much good to say about him.
I have never meet the man, however, I know some people who have.
Sad to say they did not have much good to say about him.
