V Bomber
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I have a video of 'Early Farnborough' which shows the Vulcan and the Victor doing the 'toss' bomb delivery technique - a pull up into a half-loop with a roll off the top, the bomb being released during the pull-up and the manouvre allowing the aircraft to be heading away from the area at high speed by the time the bomb goes off.
That is far more impressive in such a big aeroplane than is a barrel roll.
SSD
That is far more impressive in such a big aeroplane than is a barrel roll.
SSD
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While everyone is going Vulcan barmy, let's not forget the other V's too.
The Valiant did an excellent job until fatigue caught up with it.
Personally, I think the Victor is a far more attractive and graceful aircraft than the Vulcan. Proved to be more versatile too.
Mark.
The Valiant did an excellent job until fatigue caught up with it.
Personally, I think the Victor is a far more attractive and graceful aircraft than the Vulcan. Proved to be more versatile too.
Mark.
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To V or not to V...
One seems to have raised a few V-hackles… so for Henry C, Synthetic et al:
1. Observations regarding the effectiveness of a particular weapons delivery system are in now way any criticism of either (a) the top crews or (b) the totally awesome airframe. Having had the experience of working closely with the former, and close encounters with the latter is confirmation in itself!
2. Photos were very engaging and featured that all-time British success, the Vailant (that’s the aircraft, rather than the comic, featuring Captain Hurricane and the Wolf of Kabul… might have been the Hotspur, God knows…).
3. Using an aircraft to deliver thermonuclear devices was a dead duck when Pontius was a Pilot, so primary mission was a total non-starter.
4. The thought that a single aircraft type saved us from the red menace (rather than those pesky Ruskies deciding it was all bollux and let’s all just get some free market action) is preposterous and unworthy of further comment.
5. It’s time for my medication now… Night-night.
1. Observations regarding the effectiveness of a particular weapons delivery system are in now way any criticism of either (a) the top crews or (b) the totally awesome airframe. Having had the experience of working closely with the former, and close encounters with the latter is confirmation in itself!
2. Photos were very engaging and featured that all-time British success, the Vailant (that’s the aircraft, rather than the comic, featuring Captain Hurricane and the Wolf of Kabul… might have been the Hotspur, God knows…).
3. Using an aircraft to deliver thermonuclear devices was a dead duck when Pontius was a Pilot, so primary mission was a total non-starter.
4. The thought that a single aircraft type saved us from the red menace (rather than those pesky Ruskies deciding it was all bollux and let’s all just get some free market action) is preposterous and unworthy of further comment.
5. It’s time for my medication now… Night-night.
After leaving t'tin tringle I went to faster pointy things (it mattered more which corner was pointing forwards!) and found myself doing the WEP course. I stayed behind at cranditz after class one day and after calling some old pals to confirm details ( cep, stick interval, release height, attack angle etc ) ran some data through the rather primitive number cruncher. The answer, for what it was worth indicated the probability of a single hit on a Stanley size runway. Good or what!
It may be wrong to dismiss the effectiveness of the ' primary sunshine option' without fully appreciating the integration and involvement of all the other players.
Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.
It may be wrong to dismiss the effectiveness of the ' primary sunshine option' without fully appreciating the integration and involvement of all the other players.
Nothing matters very much, most things don't matter at all.
TheVillagePhotographer.co.uk
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Scud, you can only say that from the perspective of having survived it, so who knows? I am trying to research as many cold war links as I can, because miraculously, I survived it too.
We talk now of Trident having 150kt yield/ delivery vehicle and yet that is a pussycat compared to what was envisaged during the 50s especially, as the guidance and accuracy simply weren't there. 1, 4 and 9 Mt were more the norm.
I think the deterrant worked, though I would never like to see any point proved in such a way. The V focre was expensive in sterling terms but very cheap for what it did. Go on - bite
I need new sources!
Besties,
Conan
We talk now of Trident having 150kt yield/ delivery vehicle and yet that is a pussycat compared to what was envisaged during the 50s especially, as the guidance and accuracy simply weren't there. 1, 4 and 9 Mt were more the norm.
I think the deterrant worked, though I would never like to see any point proved in such a way. The V focre was expensive in sterling terms but very cheap for what it did. Go on - bite
I need new sources!Besties,
Conan
"Using an aircraft to deliver thermonuclear devices was a dead duck when Pontius was a Pilot, so primary mission was a total non-starter."
SCUD, could you please elaborate. As the Valiant was used to drop a series of H-bombs in the Grapple tests at Christmas Island it was shown to be possible. When the V-bombers where specified and designed ICBMs did not exist.
SCUD, could you please elaborate. As the Valiant was used to drop a series of H-bombs in the Grapple tests at Christmas Island it was shown to be possible. When the V-bombers where specified and designed ICBMs did not exist.
Groundloop, I think he was having an in-joke type dig at Pontious' navigational abilities rather than the ability of any of the V-Force to make large areas of the Soviet Union rather warm. 
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Chevvron - I think it needed to be a clean Mk1 going downhill to go past Mach 1 without too much drama. I'm told the later airframes with wing tanks, fixed leading edge droop etc. were a bit too draggy for such fun and games.
I think that a lot of people miss the point when considering the effects of the free fall Black Buck raids. The psycological effects of the guys on ground cannot be underestimated, let alone the Argentine high command. I bet the Argie Stanley laundry got a lot of underpants to clean that day!
Love the pictures, but I only counted 21 thousand pounders coming out of the bottom of the Vulcan. I thought real V bombers carried 35!
Love the pictures, but I only counted 21 thousand pounders coming out of the bottom of the Vulcan. I thought real V bombers carried 35!
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Victor
Chevvron / BikerMark - I have it on good authority that going that fast in a clean Victor B1 was not that uncommon, but yes - downhill!
Let's not forget that the Victor could and did carry a greater bomb load than the other Vs - 35 x 1000 lb.
I remember chatting to an american engineer while delayed somewhere stateside - his comment: "The Victor - that was your 'Captain Nemo' airplane wasn't it?!". I guess the prototype looked the best but the B1 was pretty aerodynamically pure too. I understand that some refinements, such as auto-droop leading edges, were later inhibited due to unreliability / maintenance workload - pity.
In terms of meeting the original spec - it has to be the Victor every time - just a pity they never put bigger engines in the mark 1.
Chevvron / BikerMark - I have it on good authority that going that fast in a clean Victor B1 was not that uncommon, but yes - downhill!
Let's not forget that the Victor could and did carry a greater bomb load than the other Vs - 35 x 1000 lb.
I remember chatting to an american engineer while delayed somewhere stateside - his comment: "The Victor - that was your 'Captain Nemo' airplane wasn't it?!". I guess the prototype looked the best but the B1 was pretty aerodynamically pure too. I understand that some refinements, such as auto-droop leading edges, were later inhibited due to unreliability / maintenance workload - pity.
In terms of meeting the original spec - it has to be the Victor every time - just a pity they never put bigger engines in the mark 1.
The Vulcan didn't carry it's load very far either. Don't forget it needed 14 Victors to get to las Islas Malvinas!!!!!
The main reason the Victor B2 wasn't as good at high Mach numbers was that to fit the Conways in, the wings had to be a lot deeper. This spoilt the almost perfect area ruling of the B1. this is why the 'Kuchmen carrots' or aerodynamic bodies were fitted to the trailing ede of the B2, to try and restore it. The B1 would go supersonic with little fuss whereas the K2 (don't know about the B2 as I was too young to fly it) would Mach buffet above M0.92.
The partially fixed out leading edge devices were as a resulty of the fatal crash of the prototype B2 into the Bristol Channel. The devices were atomatic - being controlled by IAS. A pitot tube dropped off when it's securing collar came undone at high speed and the devices deployed making the aircraft uncontrollable. The decision was to do away with the devices.
The main reason the Victor B2 wasn't as good at high Mach numbers was that to fit the Conways in, the wings had to be a lot deeper. This spoilt the almost perfect area ruling of the B1. this is why the 'Kuchmen carrots' or aerodynamic bodies were fitted to the trailing ede of the B2, to try and restore it. The B1 would go supersonic with little fuss whereas the K2 (don't know about the B2 as I was too young to fly it) would Mach buffet above M0.92.
The partially fixed out leading edge devices were as a resulty of the fatal crash of the prototype B2 into the Bristol Channel. The devices were atomatic - being controlled by IAS. A pitot tube dropped off when it's securing collar came undone at high speed and the devices deployed making the aircraft uncontrollable. The decision was to do away with the devices.
At least one Victor was lost going supersonic due to an inadvertant pitch input causing the tail section to break off according to my OC Flying. He liked the Victor, and said he'd gone SS on more than one occasion, but then being a TP he could do that!
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Chevvron
You presume too much.
Being a TP dosen't give you a licence to to be stupid.
Rather it causes a TP to be very cautious at the edges of an aircraft's performance, manoeuver and controllability envelopes. It's his job to set the edges of those envelopes with a bit of safety buffer to allow for inadvertant excursion beyond the edges of the nominated envelopes.
Compared with the Vulcan I found the Victor to feel a bit 'bendy' or delicate as though it would break easily with overstress. As a result I always instictively handled it with extra gentleness whereas the Vulcan felt like a fighter and one could readily manoeuvre through most of the aerobatics which did not involve negative g. The Valiant was a big bomb truck and flew like one.
Those descriptions are nothing like reports that a TP might make formally.
You presume too much.
Being a TP dosen't give you a licence to to be stupid.
Rather it causes a TP to be very cautious at the edges of an aircraft's performance, manoeuver and controllability envelopes. It's his job to set the edges of those envelopes with a bit of safety buffer to allow for inadvertant excursion beyond the edges of the nominated envelopes.
Compared with the Vulcan I found the Victor to feel a bit 'bendy' or delicate as though it would break easily with overstress. As a result I always instictively handled it with extra gentleness whereas the Vulcan felt like a fighter and one could readily manoeuvre through most of the aerobatics which did not involve negative g. The Valiant was a big bomb truck and flew like one.
Those descriptions are nothing like reports that a TP might make formally.
As I recall, the goal of the Mt. Pleasant air raid was to deny the airfield to Argie fast jets, which could have made serious difficulties for the carrier force had they been able to base there.
That said, the Argentinians managed a nightly C-130 run with the help of radar to vector them well away from any Harriers.
The Argentinian radar operators proved quite clever as they knew when to hit the off button whenever a Shrike was about to drop in for a visit.
That said, the Argentinians managed a nightly C-130 run with the help of radar to vector them well away from any Harriers.
The Argentinian radar operators proved quite clever as they knew when to hit the off button whenever a Shrike was about to drop in for a visit.
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Wasn't the goal of the raid on Stanley to get the Argies to draw a circle, the centre of which was at Ascension, with Stanley on the circumference? Any circle thus drawn would take in the Argentinian mainland, thus encouraging the Argies to keep their AD assets back against the possibility of a V attack?
Cunning Artificer
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Sorry to p1ss on your chips, but the only time a Vulcan ever bombed in anger
... and we stroppy ex-'V'-force anti-heroes are always prepared to accept congratulations from grateful ex-civilians, down at the Rose and Crown. Or any other pub.
Make mine a 'Mickey Finn'.