Restored Boeing 307 down in Seattle
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SW London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nor could all the retired Boeing craftsmen who gave of so much of their time to restore this machine. Even after the crash it looks absolutely stunning as per lamer's photos above.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: western europe
Posts: 1,367
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
submerged in sea water .......
I remember a few years ago I was offered an almost brand new Range Rover at cost less 75% after it was totally submerged in sea water for a night ....... the advice I was given was "No way Jose" ....... so to my question ...... after a total sea water submerge, is it really viable/possible to get a large passenger aircraft flying again? .........
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hobie:
Yes, one way is to steam clean the entire airplane inside before any real corrosion has a chance to get started.
After steam cleaning to remove the salt deposits you then use one of several anti corrosion chemicals to protect from further corrosion.
Yes, one way is to steam clean the entire airplane inside before any real corrosion has a chance to get started.
After steam cleaning to remove the salt deposits you then use one of several anti corrosion chemicals to protect from further corrosion.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SW London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it owuld be virtually impossible as salt water will have penetrated every crevice, every instrument, every tube and joint... the only conceivable way is if as suggested above the whole thing is submerged in/ flushed with fresh water for long enough to dissolve, dilute and remove the salt. It is said to be impossible to do this properly even for cars prior to the widespread use of electronics/ microprocessors. Very sad.
Perhaps it will be possible to preserve the exterior, it really is a work of art, but I couldn't see it flying again. Very heartbreaking for those involved. Last one I believe.
Perhaps it will be possible to preserve the exterior, it really is a work of art, but I couldn't see it flying again. Very heartbreaking for those involved. Last one I believe.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well PaperTiger, that is exactly my point...very FEW jet pilots of today know anything about large piston airliners...unless you have been in the shoes (and flown these types extensively)...these can be VERY tempermental machines...and propellor problems are at the forefront...that is why the prop feathering circuit is not fused....and has BIG wires. If the prop(s) cannot be feathered or run away...it is BAD news indeed.
It is a really nice aeroplane...and the CAF have guys who KNOW how to fly them...few jet pilots amoung them...too old, many late 60's - 70, believe it or not, folks who grew up with props.
It is a really nice aeroplane...and the CAF have guys who KNOW how to fly them...few jet pilots amoung them...too old, many late 60's - 70, believe it or not, folks who grew up with props.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SW London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A
I can't see from your profile what your areas of interest are but assuming you have expertise in this field I am curious to know what you think was the cause(s) of the ditching.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
O.K. Chickenhawk:
Please note I did say steam was "one" way to remove salt.
I was unaware that it is virtually impossiible to salvage airplanes from salt water immersion.
I must be mistaken, and those airplanes we salvaged from salt water are about to crumble into dust.
Maybe we could hire you as a consultant to save our business from all the claims we are about to be faced with?
...................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Please note I did say steam was "one" way to remove salt.
I was unaware that it is virtually impossiible to salvage airplanes from salt water immersion.
I must be mistaken, and those airplanes we salvaged from salt water are about to crumble into dust.
Maybe we could hire you as a consultant to save our business from all the claims we are about to be faced with?
...................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Last edited by Chuck Ellsworth; 31st Mar 2002 at 20:05.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well CH66, hard to say, but my guess is engine surge (reason unknown) followed by a prop runaway/unable to feather....either way, BAD news. A large propellor has a LOT of drag if uncontrollable. Time will tell....at least all got out OK.
Had this happen on DC-6's....not good.
Had this happen on DC-6's....not good.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SW London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks 411. Why would the problem have spread to more than one engine as would seem to have occurred.
Bit defensive there, Chuck. I make no claims of expertise. Given the complexities of the aircraft it has got to be an extremely difficult task; I was just curious about the process.
Bit defensive there, Chuck. I make no claims of expertise. Given the complexities of the aircraft it has got to be an extremely difficult task; I was just curious about the process.
I have salvaged quite a number of aircraft from salt-water over the years. Dependent upon the type of aircraft and the construction methods (and the $$ value), aircraft can be very successfully salvaged.
The difficulty in salvaging very large aircraft, is the physical size of the aircraft and the consequent difficulty in retrieving them. Although the bigger the aircraft and greater the value, the cost of restoration and rebuilding is also greater and the two will ultimatley intersect to the point that the project is not economically feasible. Rebuildable aircraft are regularly rendered beyond economic repair due to damage incurred by the salvage crews and their actions!!!
The absolute best initial action for salt water salvage is to immerse the entire aircraft in fresh water, ie; drop it in the lake! Failing that it requires heavy and active fresh water rinsing and pressure washing, whilst at the same time removing the interior and anything that will absorb and hold the corrosive salt water. Steam (as mentioned above) works well, becaues it will remove and dislodge all manner of debris and corrosive salts.
With all removable access panels, floor compartments and other structural access panels removed, it is possible to flood and drain areas, to ensure that everything is as clean as possible.
Utilizing one of the commercially available Corrosion Inhibitors like Corrosion-X (the best in my exerience, but BOEING does sell one of it's own
) it is possible to spray virtually every area of the aircraft structure. These corrosion preventatives will permeate every part of the structure and equipment and STOP the corrosion process.
There is a large amount of equipment that is rendered useless by salt-water immersion - motor's, electrical components, instruments, avionics, but for the most part these are easily replaced. The general inspection and repair process following, is much along the lines of a major overhaul/block check. It is important that the entire structure be opened to air and closely inspected to ensure that no other damage exists, nor any deposits of corrosive salts. All compartments must be cleaned and drained completely. All steel hardware, attachments, clamps, etc, needs to be pulled and inspected/replaced as required. Essentially every system in the entire aircraft requires disassembly, inspection, repair and overhaul as required, specifically aimed at the effects of salt-water immersion.
Wiring is a BIG problem. Dependent upon the time of immersion, the salt-water will corrode the terminations and ends of the wiring. I have seen aircraft that have returned to service with no problems after immersion, others that were a disaster and many that were simply rewired as the most cost effective solution to the entire rebuild. This is one of the major considerations in the entire process (in my opinion).
So obviously it is possible and viable to rebuild machines that are immersed in salt water - it happens every day, the decision is based upon the value of the aircraft versus the expense and difficulty of the undertaking.
Aircraft get immersed in water on a pretty regular basis. They ditch, float-planes sink, the tide comes in when the helicopter is parked on the beach and refuses to start (not me honest
) and a variety of other strange circumstances.
Rebuild it right, and the aircraft will come out just fine.
Would I buy a car that has been submerged in salt-water, absolutely not.
Would I buy an aircraft that has been submerged in salt water - it would depend upon the aircraft, the success of the salvage and preservation actions and the cost.
This sole existing example of a Boeing 307 in the world - probably passes all the criteria for a rebuild!
The difficulty in salvaging very large aircraft, is the physical size of the aircraft and the consequent difficulty in retrieving them. Although the bigger the aircraft and greater the value, the cost of restoration and rebuilding is also greater and the two will ultimatley intersect to the point that the project is not economically feasible. Rebuildable aircraft are regularly rendered beyond economic repair due to damage incurred by the salvage crews and their actions!!!
The absolute best initial action for salt water salvage is to immerse the entire aircraft in fresh water, ie; drop it in the lake! Failing that it requires heavy and active fresh water rinsing and pressure washing, whilst at the same time removing the interior and anything that will absorb and hold the corrosive salt water. Steam (as mentioned above) works well, becaues it will remove and dislodge all manner of debris and corrosive salts.
With all removable access panels, floor compartments and other structural access panels removed, it is possible to flood and drain areas, to ensure that everything is as clean as possible.
Utilizing one of the commercially available Corrosion Inhibitors like Corrosion-X (the best in my exerience, but BOEING does sell one of it's own
) it is possible to spray virtually every area of the aircraft structure. These corrosion preventatives will permeate every part of the structure and equipment and STOP the corrosion process. There is a large amount of equipment that is rendered useless by salt-water immersion - motor's, electrical components, instruments, avionics, but for the most part these are easily replaced. The general inspection and repair process following, is much along the lines of a major overhaul/block check. It is important that the entire structure be opened to air and closely inspected to ensure that no other damage exists, nor any deposits of corrosive salts. All compartments must be cleaned and drained completely. All steel hardware, attachments, clamps, etc, needs to be pulled and inspected/replaced as required. Essentially every system in the entire aircraft requires disassembly, inspection, repair and overhaul as required, specifically aimed at the effects of salt-water immersion.
Wiring is a BIG problem. Dependent upon the time of immersion, the salt-water will corrode the terminations and ends of the wiring. I have seen aircraft that have returned to service with no problems after immersion, others that were a disaster and many that were simply rewired as the most cost effective solution to the entire rebuild. This is one of the major considerations in the entire process (in my opinion).
So obviously it is possible and viable to rebuild machines that are immersed in salt water - it happens every day, the decision is based upon the value of the aircraft versus the expense and difficulty of the undertaking.
Aircraft get immersed in water on a pretty regular basis. They ditch, float-planes sink, the tide comes in when the helicopter is parked on the beach and refuses to start (not me honest
) and a variety of other strange circumstances. Rebuild it right, and the aircraft will come out just fine.
Would I buy a car that has been submerged in salt-water, absolutely not.
Would I buy an aircraft that has been submerged in salt water - it would depend upon the aircraft, the success of the salvage and preservation actions and the cost.
This sole existing example of a Boeing 307 in the world - probably passes all the criteria for a rebuild!
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly Cyclic:
I just couldnt bother to type that much about such a common practice.
Chickenhawk, I was only trying to correct your "impossible" remark as it was just to definate.
Next time you are in the Lee on Solent area drop by the airport and have a look at the Plain Sailing Super Cat restoration and see just how this work is performed.
Ask for Pete or Phil and tell them I sent you to have a look.
No offense meant.
.................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
I just couldnt bother to type that much about such a common practice.
Chickenhawk, I was only trying to correct your "impossible" remark as it was just to definate.
Next time you are in the Lee on Solent area drop by the airport and have a look at the Plain Sailing Super Cat restoration and see just how this work is performed.
Ask for Pete or Phil and tell them I sent you to have a look.
No offense meant.
.................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
The question of salvaging the Stratoliner raises the even bigger question of should it fly again. I don't subscribe to the "chain them to the ground lobby" but given that the Stratoliner is unique, I believe that we now have an equally unique opportunity to seek the views of the people who were intimately involved with the project, not those who were privileged to operate the aeroplane, but those who lovingly restored it. I would greatly value their opinions on whether or not the Stratoliner should fly again and I hope that someone close to the project will solicit their views and share them with us. (I nearly said "flush" out their views but there is probably going to be enough "flushing" going on!). If these guys can overcome the heartbreak of what has happened and say: "OK let's do it all again" I think it would be churlish to deny them the opportunity.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Three Tors
Posts: 405
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuck , spot-on! I wonder who would be the first to say that a seaplane (or in your case - PBY etc), shouldn't be used after the first immersion of the floats/hull in seawater!
Having been involved in two seaplane "recoveries", not the accidents, just the recovery (one a take off accident, and the other a holed float in a storm when a boat broke it's mooring and the marlin board holed the float on a Beaver), both of these resulted in submersion of the entire a/c structures in saltwater. Quite simply the a/c were transported as quickly as possible to a freshwater pool (specifically for this purpose), and left in there for a while, at the same time "divers" were inside the a/c with gentle brushes "cleaning" all of the nooks and crannies that might have held salt.
Yes the aircraft has to be stripped somewhat, but it need not be completely. An aircraft of the size of the strat will have to be "componentised" and washed that way, but the main concern is get the salt out NOW!
Chuck, always enjoy your posts both here and SPA.
Dave H.
Having been involved in two seaplane "recoveries", not the accidents, just the recovery (one a take off accident, and the other a holed float in a storm when a boat broke it's mooring and the marlin board holed the float on a Beaver), both of these resulted in submersion of the entire a/c structures in saltwater. Quite simply the a/c were transported as quickly as possible to a freshwater pool (specifically for this purpose), and left in there for a while, at the same time "divers" were inside the a/c with gentle brushes "cleaning" all of the nooks and crannies that might have held salt.
Yes the aircraft has to be stripped somewhat, but it need not be completely. An aircraft of the size of the strat will have to be "componentised" and washed that way, but the main concern is get the salt out NOW!
Chuck, always enjoy your posts both here and SPA.
Dave H.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: SW London
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for taking the time to write all that Cyclic. It would be interesting if the was an online diary/pictorial record if the process is undertaken with the 307.
I have read references to the Plane Sailing restoration in a few other threads and will endeavour to get to see it over the summer, Chuck E. Thanks.
I have read references to the Plane Sailing restoration in a few other threads and will endeavour to get to see it over the summer, Chuck E. Thanks.
