Galland vs Bader
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Galland vs Bader
Did Galland ever engage Bader in Combat?
I can't find any references, although I'm not know for my computer skills (FMC included!)
Thanks
I can't find any references, although I'm not know for my computer skills (FMC included!)
Thanks
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To the best of my knowledge, no. Galland hosted Bader's visit to his mess during Bader's captivity and I seem to recall seeing a TV documentary when they travelled together years after the war.
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May be just as well that Galland and Bader did not meet in combat.
The fighter tactics insisted on by Bader were very inferior to those of Galland and his compatriots.
The finger 4 was picked up by the allies in the North African theatre and I was most appreciative of the defensive cover it provided in Korea.
The fighter tactics insisted on by Bader were very inferior to those of Galland and his compatriots.
The finger 4 was picked up by the allies in the North African theatre and I was most appreciative of the defensive cover it provided in Korea.
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Not so Genghis.
The Finger4 (named as such by Allied pilots) - or Schwarm to give it its German name - was evolved by Luftwaffe pilots in the Spanish Civil War. It was later codified by Molders. In absolute basic terms: The leader's wingman flew low on the sun side of the leader (so that he could be seen) while the other 2 formed up about 200 yards from the leader and each other and at different heights.
The RAF had a fairly tight V formation which took a lot of concentration and not much 'room' to keep a lookout. It proved to be dangerous.
The German tactic was later copied and modified, but not without some need for battle practice on the fly.
It appears that the only time Bader met Galland was in the German mess after he was captured.
The Finger4 (named as such by Allied pilots) - or Schwarm to give it its German name - was evolved by Luftwaffe pilots in the Spanish Civil War. It was later codified by Molders. In absolute basic terms: The leader's wingman flew low on the sun side of the leader (so that he could be seen) while the other 2 formed up about 200 yards from the leader and each other and at different heights.
The RAF had a fairly tight V formation which took a lot of concentration and not much 'room' to keep a lookout. It proved to be dangerous.
The German tactic was later copied and modified, but not without some need for battle practice on the fly.
It appears that the only time Bader met Galland was in the German mess after he was captured.
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Pop,
I think Bader had something to do with copying the German tactics, so credit due there. He also made a point of seeing Galland at the end of the war when he (Galland) was a prisoner. The two men had nothing but respect for each other, and Bader wanted to make sure that Galland was treated in the manner befitting.
I think Bader had something to do with copying the German tactics, so credit due there. He also made a point of seeing Galland at the end of the war when he (Galland) was a prisoner. The two men had nothing but respect for each other, and Bader wanted to make sure that Galland was treated in the manner befitting.
Aha, just found a reasonably concise biography of Bader at http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/bader/bader.htm which says...
Seems my recollection wasn't quite as bad as it first seemed.
G
Bader, now a wing commander, left 242 Squadron and took over the "Tangmere Wing." Consisting of three Spitfire Squadrons - 145, 610 and 616 - plus a Beaufighter squadron, the wing began a series of air attacks against targets in northern France and the Low Countries. While commanding the wing, Bader introduced the so-called "finger four" formation, where the two pairs of fighters flew beside each other, scrapping forever the unwieldy three-aircraft section. Based on the Luftwaffe's Schwarm formation, the finger four later became standard throughout both the British and American air forces.
G
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Bader took command of 242 Squadron in June 1940, just in time for the BoB. Almost from the start he told Leigh-Mallory that the only way to win the air battles was with a 'Big Wing' which was hardly a success. His involvement in tactical formations was very limited. He was shot down on 9th August 1941 and that is where his story ends.
No attempt had been made, except by skilled pilots like Johnny Kent, Townsend and others, to get away from the V formation. Indeed it was not until the middle of July 1940 that such pilots loosened up the V to make a partial Schwarm but..... more aircraft together were easier to see. The principals of the Schwarm improved and was later mixed with head-on attacks.
BEags assertion that Bader was a rude is correct but he did respect Galland, who was an oustanding pilot, both Bader and Robert Stanford-Tuck proved this respect time and again.
Edited: I was in error on the date that Bader was shot down. I have corrected that. My apologies.
No attempt had been made, except by skilled pilots like Johnny Kent, Townsend and others, to get away from the V formation. Indeed it was not until the middle of July 1940 that such pilots loosened up the V to make a partial Schwarm but..... more aircraft together were easier to see. The principals of the Schwarm improved and was later mixed with head-on attacks.
BEags assertion that Bader was a rude is correct but he did respect Galland, who was an oustanding pilot, both Bader and Robert Stanford-Tuck proved this respect time and again.
Edited: I was in error on the date that Bader was shot down. I have corrected that. My apologies.
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This could go into counterdrive. Bader did indeed introduce a version of finger four but it wasn't one. These attacks were known as Rhubarbs and often two aircraft flew. The Germans, however, did that first too, with what they called a Rotte and Bader copied that. They were essentially two pairs that could act as one if the boss decided.
Various historians and writers have conflicting views of which was/wasn't etc.,
As for the original question. Although it is perhaps possible there is no record of the two engaging in combat.
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An interesting point. But try a Google by just putting Douglas Bader in the search and you will be surprised to see that it results in him being been shot down on 9th August 1941.
Who is right? What is right?
Various historians and writers have conflicting views of which was/wasn't etc.,
As for the original question. Although it is perhaps possible there is no record of the two engaging in combat.
Farmer 1
An interesting point. But try a Google by just putting Douglas Bader in the search and you will be surprised to see that it results in him being been shot down on 9th August 1941.
Who is right? What is right?
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Pop,
Done that:
I found this on the first site I tried. I'm pretty sure this is the correct version. However, no point in arguing. He was truly a great man, an inspiration.
Done that:
Bader’s amazing aura of invincibility was broken in 1941 when the plane he was flying collided with a German Messerschmit, and the Nazis captured him. After trying to escape several times he was transferred to Colditz, where he stayed until 1945, the end of the war.
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From Gallland's obit in the Telegraph:
No source is given, but Bader was shot down by JG26. In an interview , Bader addresses the point thus:
* Not clear if he means Galland specifically or just JG26.
Adolf Galland fought in the great Battles of Poland, France and Britain, leading the famous JG26 'Abbeville Boys'. He flew in combat against the RAF's best including Douglas Bader, Bob Stanford Tuck and Johnnie Johnson.
Cunningham: Did you ever engage your friend, Adolf Galland?
Bader: Adolf Galland? He was probably THE great German fighter pilot - and a great leader. He was a great chap. A nice chap, too. And he was a good shot, and everything else. But you see, we knew each other's name on the other side of the Channel, and, uh, it happened that his wing was based in Visont, behind the line on the French coast. We always came in from Tangmere on a course of about 100, 110 degrees straight over his territory, so his chaps were always up. This happened two or three times a day - I mean everyday for a long while in 1941. We didn't recognise his markings, but we knew it was his lot. We used to exchange bullets every day* from May 1941. But, he came to be a friend of mine, Adolf Galland, and we still have arguments about the old days. He comes and stays with me, you know, and he's, uh, he's a very . . . he's acquired a tremendous sense of humour. He's a very dear chap. I'm very fond of him.
Bader: Adolf Galland? He was probably THE great German fighter pilot - and a great leader. He was a great chap. A nice chap, too. And he was a good shot, and everything else. But you see, we knew each other's name on the other side of the Channel, and, uh, it happened that his wing was based in Visont, behind the line on the French coast. We always came in from Tangmere on a course of about 100, 110 degrees straight over his territory, so his chaps were always up. This happened two or three times a day - I mean everyday for a long while in 1941. We didn't recognise his markings, but we knew it was his lot. We used to exchange bullets every day* from May 1941. But, he came to be a friend of mine, Adolf Galland, and we still have arguments about the old days. He comes and stays with me, you know, and he's, uh, he's a very . . . he's acquired a tremendous sense of humour. He's a very dear chap. I'm very fond of him.
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IIRC post war they ran the BoB in a war game using Baders big wing tactics with results that were not good. Bader's 'visibility' to the public, and his disagreements about the real BoB tactics, was one of the reasons behind the relative anonymity of the real brains behind 1940, Dowding and Keith Park.
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IIRC the account of Bader being brought down in a collision with a German aircraft was published in "Reach for the Sky" and was certainly depicted that way in the film.
However, German records, which were quite accurate when it came to their own aircraft, do not record losing any on the day in question to a collision.
It is now a long time since I have read "Reach for the Sky" but I believe the description given was that Bader saw two German aircraft approaching but believed that he had time to engage another aircraft so he turned to attack that aircraft. It was then that the collision occured.
By turning away from attacking aircraft he committed one of the cardinal sins of air fighting - you should always turn into an attack. He presented his aircraft to be attacked from the rear which appears to have been far more likely than a collision.
The description offered in the book sounds more like a person who was unwilling to admit that he had been shot down.
However, German records, which were quite accurate when it came to their own aircraft, do not record losing any on the day in question to a collision.
It is now a long time since I have read "Reach for the Sky" but I believe the description given was that Bader saw two German aircraft approaching but believed that he had time to engage another aircraft so he turned to attack that aircraft. It was then that the collision occured.
By turning away from attacking aircraft he committed one of the cardinal sins of air fighting - you should always turn into an attack. He presented his aircraft to be attacked from the rear which appears to have been far more likely than a collision.
The description offered in the book sounds more like a person who was unwilling to admit that he had been shot down.
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http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/01arch.html
This is taken from the RAF's own history section. It says that Bader was shot down. I think I prefer this to Brickhill's version and I also think PLovett is probably right.
However, there are a lot of reports that state he was involved in a mid-air. The Germans on the other hand, and after the war, reported NO mid-airs over the Pas-de-Calais on the 9th August 1941.
Tribute to Douglas Bader unveiled.
A statue of Sir Douglas Bader has been unveiled by Lady Bader at Goodwood. The location was known as RAF Westhampnett during the Battle of Britain, and it was from here on August 9, 1941, that Sir Douglas took off on his last wartime mission before being shot down and taken prisoner by the Germans.
A statue of Sir Douglas Bader has been unveiled by Lady Bader at Goodwood. The location was known as RAF Westhampnett during the Battle of Britain, and it was from here on August 9, 1941, that Sir Douglas took off on his last wartime mission before being shot down and taken prisoner by the Germans.
However, there are a lot of reports that state he was involved in a mid-air. The Germans on the other hand, and after the war, reported NO mid-airs over the Pas-de-Calais on the 9th August 1941.
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Whilst the idea of Bader having been involved in a midair seems to have been the accepted version of events, there was a good article in 'After the Battle' a little while ago that suggested that he had been shot down by another RAF pilot. The assertion was backed up with fairly extensive research, including some detail from German records demonstrating that no German a/c had been damaged in a midair on that day.
Think it was about three or four issues back - the most recent issue has a 'from the editor' section in which further reference is made to the incident.
Think it was about three or four issues back - the most recent issue has a 'from the editor' section in which further reference is made to the incident.