Caravelle
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Did the early models have a braking parachute? I'm pretty sure I remember seeing Air France ones taxying in at Manchester in the early 60s, and dropping said 'chute on the taxyway just after vacating the runway.
SSD
SSD
Some Caravelle braking 'chute pics:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/226368/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/229579/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/716050/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/226368/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/229579/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/716050/M/
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Yes, indeed early versions of the Caravelle did have a braking parachute deployed from the base of the tail.
I was fortunate in making five flights by Caravelle in the early 1980's. I flew VIE-CDG on a Series III (F-BJTL) on Air France's last day of Caravelle ops 28/3/81 and unless my memory is playing me up I recall seeing the parachute had been deployed on the aircraft's last flight into CDG. Then on 26/11/81 I flew LHR-LIL-SXB-LIN on an Europe Air Service Series VI aircraft (the LIL-SXB service operated under an Air Inter flight number) deputising for a TAT F100 on Air France's then LHR-LIL-SXB route. Finally, on 23/3/82 I flew LYS-CDG on F-BTOE of Air Inter a Series 12 and the last production aircraft which had originally entered service as late as 1973 and is now preserved in Toulouse. By coincidence, that morning I had flown ORY-LYS on F-BTTJ the very last production Mercure thus enjoying by chance two 'final production aircraft' flights in one day.
I liked the Caravelle with its unusual shaped windows and curtains at the windows. A fine aircraft which I recall shared its nose section design with that of the DH Comet.
I was fortunate in making five flights by Caravelle in the early 1980's. I flew VIE-CDG on a Series III (F-BJTL) on Air France's last day of Caravelle ops 28/3/81 and unless my memory is playing me up I recall seeing the parachute had been deployed on the aircraft's last flight into CDG. Then on 26/11/81 I flew LHR-LIL-SXB-LIN on an Europe Air Service Series VI aircraft (the LIL-SXB service operated under an Air Inter flight number) deputising for a TAT F100 on Air France's then LHR-LIL-SXB route. Finally, on 23/3/82 I flew LYS-CDG on F-BTOE of Air Inter a Series 12 and the last production aircraft which had originally entered service as late as 1973 and is now preserved in Toulouse. By coincidence, that morning I had flown ORY-LYS on F-BTTJ the very last production Mercure thus enjoying by chance two 'final production aircraft' flights in one day.
I liked the Caravelle with its unusual shaped windows and curtains at the windows. A fine aircraft which I recall shared its nose section design with that of the DH Comet.
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WHBM
Only the United Air Lines Caravelle VI Rs had the drop-down oxygen system, as you say because of FAA demands. The procedure was then to descend immediately to 17,000ft in two minutes. After eight minutes, a further descent would be made to 14,000ft (at 3,000ft/m). At this altitude, pax had oxygen for 20 minutes.
Even the later Super Caravelles did not use drop-down masks as the high-speed emergency descent rate was around 10,000ft/min. After donning masks, the crew procedure was retard throttles to idle, extend air (speed) brakes (these were on upper and lower wing surfaces), lower nose 20 degrees without exceeding 0.5g, maintain maximum speed of Mach 0.82/IAS 323kt, check terrain clearance, inform ATC, level out started 700ft before desired altitude to avopid excessive loads. The action has been called rather unnerving for the uninitiated.
Service ceiling was 39,300ft (12,000m); in practice around FL350-370 with a full load.
In the event that the cabin altitude reached 10,000ft (up from the usual 7000-8000ft), there were visual and aural warnings. A pressure relief valve limited cabin altitude to 13,000ft.
I am not aware of any significant pressurization problems occurring with the Caravelle during its service life.
SSD
The early Caravelles powered by Rolls-Royce Avons without reversers (so the Type I, I A, III, VI N) did have a braking parachute, which offered insurance in the case of brake problems or slippery runways because of rain, ice, or snow. Deployment was not routine. The sensation for the pax was comparable to reverse thrust.
GAXLN
Yes, the prototype Caravelles shared the nose of the Comet. After the Comet disasters, Sud Aviation re-engineered the cockpit section, and it was later modified with larger transparencies.
Only the United Air Lines Caravelle VI Rs had the drop-down oxygen system, as you say because of FAA demands. The procedure was then to descend immediately to 17,000ft in two minutes. After eight minutes, a further descent would be made to 14,000ft (at 3,000ft/m). At this altitude, pax had oxygen for 20 minutes.
Even the later Super Caravelles did not use drop-down masks as the high-speed emergency descent rate was around 10,000ft/min. After donning masks, the crew procedure was retard throttles to idle, extend air (speed) brakes (these were on upper and lower wing surfaces), lower nose 20 degrees without exceeding 0.5g, maintain maximum speed of Mach 0.82/IAS 323kt, check terrain clearance, inform ATC, level out started 700ft before desired altitude to avopid excessive loads. The action has been called rather unnerving for the uninitiated.
Service ceiling was 39,300ft (12,000m); in practice around FL350-370 with a full load.
In the event that the cabin altitude reached 10,000ft (up from the usual 7000-8000ft), there were visual and aural warnings. A pressure relief valve limited cabin altitude to 13,000ft.
I am not aware of any significant pressurization problems occurring with the Caravelle during its service life.
SSD
The early Caravelles powered by Rolls-Royce Avons without reversers (so the Type I, I A, III, VI N) did have a braking parachute, which offered insurance in the case of brake problems or slippery runways because of rain, ice, or snow. Deployment was not routine. The sensation for the pax was comparable to reverse thrust.
GAXLN
Yes, the prototype Caravelles shared the nose of the Comet. After the Comet disasters, Sud Aviation re-engineered the cockpit section, and it was later modified with larger transparencies.
Self Loathing Froggy
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I have flown (SLF) on some of the last Air Inter ORY<->GNB flights (12 series), before the Mercure. One of the worst flights I have experienced was on the same route on a III series from Corse Air with the smallest seat pitch I ever saw (non-reclining seatbacks). I couldn't keep simultaneously my heels on the ground and my knees close together 
Nice airplane to fly on, and probably one of the best aluminium gliders (L/D over 20 at a time when the wooden two-seaters were no better). On April 16th 1959, the Air France "Lorraine" Caravelle glided 265 km in 46 minutes from Orly to Dijon starting at 12000m with engines idled.
Nice airplane to fly on, and probably one of the best aluminium gliders (L/D over 20 at a time when the wooden two-seaters were no better). On April 16th 1959, the Air France "Lorraine" Caravelle glided 265 km in 46 minutes from Orly to Dijon starting at 12000m with engines idled.
Last edited by Bre901; 24th Aug 2005 at 16:37.
Airways Ed:
Interesting information about the Caravelle's pressurisation features. Looks like it would take up to 3 minutes to get down to breathable altitudes, given crew reaction time, working up to max descent rate, etc.
Reason I was interested (and had questions about ceiling and known events) is to compare with recent discussion about the Helios accident, where there was much discussion about how, if you don't don masks in the first 10-15 seconds, problems arise.
I know Caravelle flight deck had their own masks. But F/As may well be in mid-cabin when it starts. And given the state of development of 1950s pressurisation systems compared to today, one would expect many more system failures, and thus experience of what happens.
Didn't mean to get into braking parachutes, but how long did it take to repack it before departure after being deployed ? Was it dragged in on the ground to the gate or could it be retracted again ? Whose job was repacking - base engineer or F/E (which I believe Caravelles had) ? Old skydiver here is just intrigued with all the potential problems. By the way (getting back to the emergency descent)) that 10,000 fpm descent is almost up to skydivers terminal velocity, and no jump plane was ever able to anything like keep up with us (though some tried !)
Interesting information about the Caravelle's pressurisation features. Looks like it would take up to 3 minutes to get down to breathable altitudes, given crew reaction time, working up to max descent rate, etc.
Reason I was interested (and had questions about ceiling and known events) is to compare with recent discussion about the Helios accident, where there was much discussion about how, if you don't don masks in the first 10-15 seconds, problems arise.
I know Caravelle flight deck had their own masks. But F/As may well be in mid-cabin when it starts. And given the state of development of 1950s pressurisation systems compared to today, one would expect many more system failures, and thus experience of what happens.
Didn't mean to get into braking parachutes, but how long did it take to repack it before departure after being deployed ? Was it dragged in on the ground to the gate or could it be retracted again ? Whose job was repacking - base engineer or F/E (which I believe Caravelles had) ? Old skydiver here is just intrigued with all the potential problems. By the way (getting back to the emergency descent)) that 10,000 fpm descent is almost up to skydivers terminal velocity, and no jump plane was ever able to anything like keep up with us (though some tried !)
Last edited by WHBM; 25th Aug 2005 at 14:44.
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You are correct, WHBM, the assumption was a maximum of three minutes to reach FL140 from cruising altitude. TUC without oxygen was considered 30sec at FL350. Crews have told me they could beat the average 10,000ft/min descent in practices.
The braking parachute was normally released between the runway and the tarmac area.
Sometimes a spare chute was carried in the cargo hold, or one kept in the station spares stores. The job of repacking the parachute was that of the base engineer. I would guess the process to repack and stow would take an hour or so.
While a third pilot or systems operator was often part of the Caravelle crew complement, depending on the union situation, many operators had a two-pilot crew (the Caravelle was the first jetliner so-operated).
Incidentally, the Tupolev Tu-104 also had braking chutes fitted.
Good questions; one day I must screw up the courage to dive out of an aircraft!
The braking parachute was normally released between the runway and the tarmac area.
Sometimes a spare chute was carried in the cargo hold, or one kept in the station spares stores. The job of repacking the parachute was that of the base engineer. I would guess the process to repack and stow would take an hour or so.
While a third pilot or systems operator was often part of the Caravelle crew complement, depending on the union situation, many operators had a two-pilot crew (the Caravelle was the first jetliner so-operated).
Incidentally, the Tupolev Tu-104 also had braking chutes fitted.
Good questions; one day I must screw up the courage to dive out of an aircraft!
Gnome de PPRuNe
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one day I must screw up the courage to dive out of an aircraft!
and no jump plane was ever able to anything like keep up with us (though some tried !)
A stunt repeated in one of the Bond films with a PC-6.
Sorry, back to Caravelles....
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I was but a wee lad in the early '60s when I saw AF Caravelles vacate Manchester's 24 and drop the 'chute on the taxyway. I remember some of the older hands (probably all of 15 years old) commenting on how unpopular this was with the airport authorities, since they had to go out and collect it so the taxyway would not remain blocked.
Not that there was that much traffic at Manch in those days!
SSD
Not that there was that much traffic at Manch in those days!
SSD
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Checking the Air France maintenance manual, a spare parachute already packed in its container was normally carried, so the actual replacement process was to install a new container and not repack the chute. The container weighed 26kg.
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The first plane I flew in was a Caravelle. Paris to Rome and return. I was ten years old and loved every minute of it.
Why don't they make noses like that anymore?
Best looking nose of the aviation industry, I think.
Not only was the engine layout revolutionary but if I recall it was also the first aircraft fitted with a ramp like stairwell dropping down from the rear.
And 10 000 Ft/Min descents???
WOW!
Anyone ever tried dive bombing with a Caravelle?
Why don't they make noses like that anymore?
Best looking nose of the aviation industry, I think.
Not only was the engine layout revolutionary but if I recall it was also the first aircraft fitted with a ramp like stairwell dropping down from the rear.
And 10 000 Ft/Min descents???
WOW!
Anyone ever tried dive bombing with a Caravelle?
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Rear stairs
The Martinliner twins (202 & 404) had rear stairs under the tail.
I have also seen such a boarding stair on an executive PBY Catalina - behind the aft hull step.
Of course they were very common on 727's & early DC-9's. A scoundel named D.B. Cooper used one as a jump exit for his getaway - one of the earliest hijackings. This event brought about a squat-switch interlock for the stair.
I have also seen such a boarding stair on an executive PBY Catalina - behind the aft hull step.
Of course they were very common on 727's & early DC-9's. A scoundel named D.B. Cooper used one as a jump exit for his getaway - one of the earliest hijackings. This event brought about a squat-switch interlock for the stair.
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Both the Martin 202 and some Convair 240s introduced the rear integral stairway, a feature adopted for the Caravelle and so making it the first jet so-equipped.
Paratroopers used the stairway for their exit.
Paratroopers used the stairway for their exit.
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Self Loathing Froggy
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Anyone ever tried dive bombing with a Caravelle?
Same page in english (looks like an automatic translation)
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The first Convair-Liner, the Model 110, featured the ventral door and stairway.
Production 240s were offered in four interior and door arrangements, Types A, B, C, & D; only B (sometimes referred to as W for Western) had the ventral door and integral stairs.
To return to the Caravelle, the Zero G example is preserved at Bordeaux.
Production 240s were offered in four interior and door arrangements, Types A, B, C, & D; only B (sometimes referred to as W for Western) had the ventral door and integral stairs.
To return to the Caravelle, the Zero G example is preserved at Bordeaux.
