Sally"B"s insurance (Merged)
Which means lots of generous people are public spiritedly contributing to line the pockets of an insurance company's shareholders, paying for passenger liability insurance that isn't needed and won't ever need to be paid out on......
G
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Good show on behalf of Branson's boys (and I am not normally his biggest fan) and the mystery yank. However I agree totally with Ghengis. Let's not forget that there is next year and the years after to deal with - lobbying to change this ridiculous law is still vital.
Get up earlier - so you can hate the EU for longer !
Get up earlier - so you can hate the EU for longer !
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Which means lots of generous people are public spiritedly contributing to line the pockets of an insurance company's shareholders, paying for passenger liability insurance that isn't needed and won't ever need to be paid out on......
As for passenger liability, anybody who carries passengers without it is a fool. It really is as simple as that.
Same applies - a B-25 does not represent the 3rd party risk of a 737 - it simply has less kinetic energy with which to do damage and the insurance premiums should reflect that nothing changed w.r.t. this on 1 May.
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Third Party Limit
Hi Biggles FU,
I understand you focusing on the third party limit, but let's not forget these EU fools who missed the point are singing off this EU Commission hymn sheet when one of it's lackies mentions 9/11.
The salient words are, "many airline companies found their cover inadequate".............. well, I'm sorry but that's their problem.
SallyB is NOT "an airline company" and whilst I agree with you it's a third party insurance issue, the risk factor and proportionate weighting MUST be applied.
SallyB and her like are special cases, and the EU must recognise one size does not fit all.
TG
I understand you focusing on the third party limit, but let's not forget these EU fools who missed the point are singing off this EU Commission hymn sheet when one of it's lackies mentions 9/11.
EU insurance rules
Sir - While it is regrettable that insurance costs have grounded Sally B (News, May 21), it is important to understand why the rules were introduced. After September 11, many airline companies found their cover to be inadequate and in several countries the state was obliged to assume the role of insurer. To prevent this happening again, new laws were approved by EU governments and the European Parliament introduced minimum insurance requirements that all aircraft owners are now obliged to take out. These rules were voted on by British ministers and MEPs, who were intrinsically involved throughout the legislative process. Indeed, the Government consulted industry beforehand.
Whether the owners of Sally B were invited to participate, and whether the Government took into account their views if they did, are questions only they can answer. Surely it is not being suggested that planes fly without adequate insurance?
Ian Barber, Acting Head of the European Commission in the UK, London SW1
Sir - While it is regrettable that insurance costs have grounded Sally B (News, May 21), it is important to understand why the rules were introduced. After September 11, many airline companies found their cover to be inadequate and in several countries the state was obliged to assume the role of insurer. To prevent this happening again, new laws were approved by EU governments and the European Parliament introduced minimum insurance requirements that all aircraft owners are now obliged to take out. These rules were voted on by British ministers and MEPs, who were intrinsically involved throughout the legislative process. Indeed, the Government consulted industry beforehand.
Whether the owners of Sally B were invited to participate, and whether the Government took into account their views if they did, are questions only they can answer. Surely it is not being suggested that planes fly without adequate insurance?
Ian Barber, Acting Head of the European Commission in the UK, London SW1
SallyB is NOT "an airline company" and whilst I agree with you it's a third party insurance issue, the risk factor and proportionate weighting MUST be applied.
SallyB and her like are special cases, and the EU must recognise one size does not fit all.
TG
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in several countries the state was obliged to assume the role of insurer
It was the war risks cover that was the problem. Insurers always expected that their biggest loss would come from passengers killed in a hijack - they never envisaged the potential for a two billion dollar third party claim. After 9/11 the level of third party (not passenger) war risks cover was restricted, but there is now a higher level available at a price.
None of the above has the slightest thing to do with the EU minimum limits, but with people like Ian Barber spouting stuff like that is there any surprise that the whole thing is a mess?
These rules were voted on by British ministers and MEPs, who were intrinsically involved throughout the legislative process. Indeed, the Government consulted industry beforehand.
But, due to qualified majority voting, we are saddled with them anyhow?
G
Awesome but Affordable
Hello there,
Good news for the 2006 season.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
____________________________________
14 October 2005
Hope on the Horizon for Sally B
As Aviation Insurers, Politicians, and enthusiasts rally to the cause of ‘living’ aviation heritage
In an unprecedented move, the immediate threat of permanent grounding to an important living piece of national heritage, B-17 Flying Fortress Sally B, has been temporarily lifted. On 29th September, aviation insurance underwriters came up with an affordable ‘stop gap’ solution to comply with a new controversial European Union regulation that had placed crippling financial demands on the operation of the 60-year old bomber. New legislation had put a burden of an extra £1,000 per flying hour on this national aviation icon. Sally B receives no direct state funding to keep her airborne.
Elly Sallingboe, B-17 Operator said: “Our fight to change this rule goes on, but we are delighted that the insurance world has again come up trumps with an affordable solution to help. Meanwhile, we wait for the EU to change this totally unrealistic law. “We thank Lloyds brokers Marsh, Sally B's broker Arthur J Gallagher (UK) and other London insurance companies and Lloyds Underwriters. The B-17 is now fully covered by third party liability insurance up to the 30th September 2006.
“With the help of politicians, the Civil Aviation Authority and our many friends and supporters, we have managed to get the ear of the Regulators in Brussels. It is now appreciated that an oversight has been made in this third party issue for Sally B.
“But, to change a law like this will take time. Once an EU law has been made, it takes years to reverse it. But, the pioneering work has now been done and I am confident that within the next 18 months this unjust law will be changed, not only for Sally B, but for vintage aircraft in general. Like Sally B, they are not commercial airliners, they are flying memorials loaded not with bombs but with memories. Such aircraft salute those who gave their lives for our freedom, a sacrifice that must never be forgotten”.
This has been a hard season for Sally B and her team, condensing as much work as possible in a season reduced to three months. But with dedication and enthusiasm, helped by loyal members and friends digging deep, the impossible has been achieved and on the 10th July Sally B joined the London flypast marking the 60th anniversary of the end of World War Two and has since flown proudly through her special anniversary year - her 30th flying season in the UK.
A petition seeking an exemption to the new EU regulations has now been signed by 25,000-plus people – all by hand. This will be presented to Downing Street in due course.
Thousands of B-17s, nicknamed Flying Fortress, flew daylight raids over German cities during the war. The aircraft is permanently based at the Imperial War Museum Duxford. It is backed by a registered charity and relies solely on charitable donations for its survival. This year it celebrate 30 year flying in the UK and its 60 birthday. To learn more, join the Supporters Club and/or make a donation to the Sally B Anniversary Appeal, please visit www.sallyb.org.uk. or contact Elly Sallingboe on 01638 721304
www.sallyb.org.uk
Sally B is one of a mere handful of survivors from the 12,731 Fortresses which were built, and her future in this country can only be secured through fundraising.
Good news for the 2006 season.
Cheers,
Trapper 69
____________________________________
14 October 2005
Hope on the Horizon for Sally B
As Aviation Insurers, Politicians, and enthusiasts rally to the cause of ‘living’ aviation heritage
In an unprecedented move, the immediate threat of permanent grounding to an important living piece of national heritage, B-17 Flying Fortress Sally B, has been temporarily lifted. On 29th September, aviation insurance underwriters came up with an affordable ‘stop gap’ solution to comply with a new controversial European Union regulation that had placed crippling financial demands on the operation of the 60-year old bomber. New legislation had put a burden of an extra £1,000 per flying hour on this national aviation icon. Sally B receives no direct state funding to keep her airborne.
Elly Sallingboe, B-17 Operator said: “Our fight to change this rule goes on, but we are delighted that the insurance world has again come up trumps with an affordable solution to help. Meanwhile, we wait for the EU to change this totally unrealistic law. “We thank Lloyds brokers Marsh, Sally B's broker Arthur J Gallagher (UK) and other London insurance companies and Lloyds Underwriters. The B-17 is now fully covered by third party liability insurance up to the 30th September 2006.
“With the help of politicians, the Civil Aviation Authority and our many friends and supporters, we have managed to get the ear of the Regulators in Brussels. It is now appreciated that an oversight has been made in this third party issue for Sally B.
“But, to change a law like this will take time. Once an EU law has been made, it takes years to reverse it. But, the pioneering work has now been done and I am confident that within the next 18 months this unjust law will be changed, not only for Sally B, but for vintage aircraft in general. Like Sally B, they are not commercial airliners, they are flying memorials loaded not with bombs but with memories. Such aircraft salute those who gave their lives for our freedom, a sacrifice that must never be forgotten”.
This has been a hard season for Sally B and her team, condensing as much work as possible in a season reduced to three months. But with dedication and enthusiasm, helped by loyal members and friends digging deep, the impossible has been achieved and on the 10th July Sally B joined the London flypast marking the 60th anniversary of the end of World War Two and has since flown proudly through her special anniversary year - her 30th flying season in the UK.
A petition seeking an exemption to the new EU regulations has now been signed by 25,000-plus people – all by hand. This will be presented to Downing Street in due course.
Thousands of B-17s, nicknamed Flying Fortress, flew daylight raids over German cities during the war. The aircraft is permanently based at the Imperial War Museum Duxford. It is backed by a registered charity and relies solely on charitable donations for its survival. This year it celebrate 30 year flying in the UK and its 60 birthday. To learn more, join the Supporters Club and/or make a donation to the Sally B Anniversary Appeal, please visit www.sallyb.org.uk. or contact Elly Sallingboe on 01638 721304
www.sallyb.org.uk
Sally B is one of a mere handful of survivors from the 12,731 Fortresses which were built, and her future in this country can only be secured through fundraising.
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Brilliant - just brilliant
Hello G-KEST,
Brilliant news indeed.
I have been writing to MP's/MEP's about this very aircraft, and with all those others involved, share the hope that the EC will indeed make good their silly mistake ASAP and realise memories and sacrifice are more important than dumb regulations.
If I may, I could send you a PM of some of the letters for leverage.
To all those who gave their life's in the shadow of B-17's like SallyB, we salute you......... and we will remember you... forever.
Safe, happy flying
TG
Brilliant news indeed.
I have been writing to MP's/MEP's about this very aircraft, and with all those others involved, share the hope that the EC will indeed make good their silly mistake ASAP and realise memories and sacrifice are more important than dumb regulations.
If I may, I could send you a PM of some of the letters for leverage.
To all those who gave their life's in the shadow of B-17's like SallyB, we salute you......... and we will remember you... forever.
Safe, happy flying
TG
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Robert Hanson - RIP
RIP Robert
dit dit dit dah dit dah
TG
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../18/db1802.xml
Robert Hanson
(Filed: 18/10/2005)
Robert Hanson, who has died in Albuquerque, New Mexico, aged 85, was the last surviving crew member of the Memphis Belle, perhaps the most celebrated aircraft of the Second World War.
Between November 1942 and May 1943 the Belle, a B-17, became the first American bomber to complete 25 missions over Occupied Europe and to return safely to the United States. At the time, the USAAF squadrons based in Britain - the Eighth Air Force - were conducting daylight raids without adequate fighter escort, and three in four aircraft were being lost within three months of entering combat. In all, 30,000 servicemen of the "Mighty Eighth" were to perish by the war's end.
The survival of the Memphis Belle was thus seen as a considerable fillip to morale, one exploited to full effect by the documentary-maker William Wyler, whose film of the crew in action enshrined the courage of ordinary young Americans. Hanson, the radio operator, and Bob Morgan, the aircraft's pilot, attributed their continued existence to two more prosaic factors: teamwork and sheer luck.
The crew of 10 had come together in the summer of 1942, and after the flight across the Atlantic were based with 324th Bomb Squadron at Bassingbourn, near Royston, Cambridgeshire. The B-17, or "Flying Fortress", was the USAAF's principal striking arm of the war, distinguished by its near 104-ft wingspan and protective armament of 13 Browning machine-guns distributed around the aircraft. The average age of a B-17's complement was 22.
That of the Memphis Belle named theirs for Morgan's girlfriend of the time, and had its nose decorated by a seductively-clad beauty copied from one of George Petty's lubricious paintings for Esquire. Hanson, meanwhile, inscribed the name of his new bride, Irene, by the window where he sat amidships.
Their first raid, on November 7, was on the dockyards at Brest. The main objective of the USAAF at the time was to hinder the German U-boat effort, and most of the Belle's other missions, carried out roughly every 10 days, were to the ports of France, Belgium and Germany. The defence was fierce, but in fact the most reckless of the Eighth's raids, such as those on the aircraft plants at Schweinfurt and Regensburg, in which one in six B-17s were destroyed, did not take place until after the Belle had finished her tour.
Hanson carried a rabbit's foot for luck, and on one occasion was writing in a logbook during a raid when he suddenly felt cold and sneezed. As he jerked downwards, a bullet passed through the air where his head had been and lodged in the book.
On January 23 1943, the squadron bombed the submarine pens at Lorient, France. By now, the German fighter pilots had discovered that the "Forts" were vulnerable to a head-on attack. They picked on the group of aircraft in which the Belle was flying, and for 25 minutes subjected it to constant assault. When an FW-190 came straight at him, Morgan was unable to dive because of B-17s below him, and was forced to pull up into the cannon-shell stream being directed at his aircraft. It blew the tail off, and set the Belle alight.
Morgan's only hope was to set the nose straight down in the hope of extinguishing the flames. As Morgan dived several thousand feet at high speed, Hanson was flung against the roof and then almost out of the gaping back of the aircraft; but the tactic worked, and the bomber was able to return safely to base. On another occasion, she landed bearing 68 separate rips in her fabric. For their part, the Belle's crew accounted for a total of eight Luftwaffe fighters and five more "probables".
Wyler's film The Memphis Belle (1944), which established the crew's fame when shown widely in the United States, was billed as a record of their 25th mission. In fact, he and his cameraman had flown on the penultimate raid, to Wilhelmshaven, and the documentary also incorporated footage shot at other times.
After successfully completing their last run, to Lorient, on May 17, and after 148 hours in combat, the crew was introduced first to the King and Queen, and then sent on a 32-city tour of America to raise spirits and sell war-bonds; they were accompanied by their mascot, a Highland terrier named Stuka. Hanson, in common with the rest, was awarded the US Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Medal with three Oak Leaf clusters.
Robert John Hanson was born on May 25 1920. His mother died when he was young, and as his father, a road builder, was often absent, Bob and his two brothers were placed in an orphanage. From there they were rescued by a bachelor uncle who raised them at Garfield, Washington, where Bob became a star athlete at high school.
He won a baseball scholarship to university, but chose instead to go out to work, and in the summer of 1941 enlisted in the US Army. Determined not to become an infantryman, after the attack on Pearl Harbor he volunteered for radio training and transferred to the Air Force.
After returning home in 1943, he spent the remainder of the war as a radio instructor. When peace came, he found work as the district manager of, first, a food company and then a sweets manufacturer at Spokane, Washington. The Memphis Belle was kept on show in Memphis, and is soon to move to the National Air Force Museum at Dayton, Ohio. In 1990 Hanson and the other survivors were flown to England to advise on a fictional remake of Memphis Belle, starring Matthew Modine, Billy Zane and Harry Connick Jr.
A family man, with a high sense of ethics and a fondness for laughter, Hanson enjoyed golf and square dancing in retirement. To the end, he liked to finish telephone conversations with the wartime Morse Code sign-off: dit, dit, dit, dah, dit, dah. He died on October 1.
He married, in 1942, Irene Payton, who survives him with a son and a daughter. Another daughter predeceased him.
he liked to finish telephone conversations with the wartime Morse Code sign-off: dit, dit, dit, dah, dit, dah.
dit dit dit dah dit dah
TG
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../18/db1802.xml
Robert Hanson
(Filed: 18/10/2005)
Robert Hanson, who has died in Albuquerque, New Mexico, aged 85, was the last surviving crew member of the Memphis Belle, perhaps the most celebrated aircraft of the Second World War.
Between November 1942 and May 1943 the Belle, a B-17, became the first American bomber to complete 25 missions over Occupied Europe and to return safely to the United States. At the time, the USAAF squadrons based in Britain - the Eighth Air Force - were conducting daylight raids without adequate fighter escort, and three in four aircraft were being lost within three months of entering combat. In all, 30,000 servicemen of the "Mighty Eighth" were to perish by the war's end.
The survival of the Memphis Belle was thus seen as a considerable fillip to morale, one exploited to full effect by the documentary-maker William Wyler, whose film of the crew in action enshrined the courage of ordinary young Americans. Hanson, the radio operator, and Bob Morgan, the aircraft's pilot, attributed their continued existence to two more prosaic factors: teamwork and sheer luck.
The crew of 10 had come together in the summer of 1942, and after the flight across the Atlantic were based with 324th Bomb Squadron at Bassingbourn, near Royston, Cambridgeshire. The B-17, or "Flying Fortress", was the USAAF's principal striking arm of the war, distinguished by its near 104-ft wingspan and protective armament of 13 Browning machine-guns distributed around the aircraft. The average age of a B-17's complement was 22.
That of the Memphis Belle named theirs for Morgan's girlfriend of the time, and had its nose decorated by a seductively-clad beauty copied from one of George Petty's lubricious paintings for Esquire. Hanson, meanwhile, inscribed the name of his new bride, Irene, by the window where he sat amidships.
Their first raid, on November 7, was on the dockyards at Brest. The main objective of the USAAF at the time was to hinder the German U-boat effort, and most of the Belle's other missions, carried out roughly every 10 days, were to the ports of France, Belgium and Germany. The defence was fierce, but in fact the most reckless of the Eighth's raids, such as those on the aircraft plants at Schweinfurt and Regensburg, in which one in six B-17s were destroyed, did not take place until after the Belle had finished her tour.
Hanson carried a rabbit's foot for luck, and on one occasion was writing in a logbook during a raid when he suddenly felt cold and sneezed. As he jerked downwards, a bullet passed through the air where his head had been and lodged in the book.
On January 23 1943, the squadron bombed the submarine pens at Lorient, France. By now, the German fighter pilots had discovered that the "Forts" were vulnerable to a head-on attack. They picked on the group of aircraft in which the Belle was flying, and for 25 minutes subjected it to constant assault. When an FW-190 came straight at him, Morgan was unable to dive because of B-17s below him, and was forced to pull up into the cannon-shell stream being directed at his aircraft. It blew the tail off, and set the Belle alight.
Morgan's only hope was to set the nose straight down in the hope of extinguishing the flames. As Morgan dived several thousand feet at high speed, Hanson was flung against the roof and then almost out of the gaping back of the aircraft; but the tactic worked, and the bomber was able to return safely to base. On another occasion, she landed bearing 68 separate rips in her fabric. For their part, the Belle's crew accounted for a total of eight Luftwaffe fighters and five more "probables".
Wyler's film The Memphis Belle (1944), which established the crew's fame when shown widely in the United States, was billed as a record of their 25th mission. In fact, he and his cameraman had flown on the penultimate raid, to Wilhelmshaven, and the documentary also incorporated footage shot at other times.
After successfully completing their last run, to Lorient, on May 17, and after 148 hours in combat, the crew was introduced first to the King and Queen, and then sent on a 32-city tour of America to raise spirits and sell war-bonds; they were accompanied by their mascot, a Highland terrier named Stuka. Hanson, in common with the rest, was awarded the US Distinguished Flying Cross and the Air Medal with three Oak Leaf clusters.
Robert John Hanson was born on May 25 1920. His mother died when he was young, and as his father, a road builder, was often absent, Bob and his two brothers were placed in an orphanage. From there they were rescued by a bachelor uncle who raised them at Garfield, Washington, where Bob became a star athlete at high school.
He won a baseball scholarship to university, but chose instead to go out to work, and in the summer of 1941 enlisted in the US Army. Determined not to become an infantryman, after the attack on Pearl Harbor he volunteered for radio training and transferred to the Air Force.
After returning home in 1943, he spent the remainder of the war as a radio instructor. When peace came, he found work as the district manager of, first, a food company and then a sweets manufacturer at Spokane, Washington. The Memphis Belle was kept on show in Memphis, and is soon to move to the National Air Force Museum at Dayton, Ohio. In 1990 Hanson and the other survivors were flown to England to advise on a fictional remake of Memphis Belle, starring Matthew Modine, Billy Zane and Harry Connick Jr.
A family man, with a high sense of ethics and a fondness for laughter, Hanson enjoyed golf and square dancing in retirement. To the end, he liked to finish telephone conversations with the wartime Morse Code sign-off: dit, dit, dit, dah, dit, dah. He died on October 1.
He married, in 1942, Irene Payton, who survives him with a son and a daughter. Another daughter predeceased him.
