Victory roll?
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Rolling, rolling, Go ... Now!
Doesn't Milt realise you need to roll through 180 degrees to get to inverted? So his modified victory roll is really no troll ...
As for the lazy Immelmann, you'd end up downwind very high!
As for the lazy Immelmann, you'd end up downwind very high!
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As someone who has trapped on both the JP and the Bulldog, believe me Beagle, aileron rolls were taught on both aircraft. I know fashions change and obviously the UAS you were on didn't teach them at the time, others certainly have done.
Anyway, why "gash"? As stated earlier, the aileron roll is in the Tucano Training Manual and is taught, it's assuredly not gash.
Anyway, why "gash"? As stated earlier, the aileron roll is in the Tucano Training Manual and is taught, it's assuredly not gash.
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I thought a victory roll was done to indicate that the chap doing it had scored a victory in combat, and as such, I was never in the position to do a proper one, aileron, slow, hesitation, or whatever!
But that didn't stop me enjoying myself on occasions such as BofB displays, AOC inspections, and the like in the trusty Vamp T11. Lots of knots, appear from behind the spectators, pull up for a vertical four point roll, pull gently over the top, airbrakes out and throttle off into vertical down four point before the normal slow rolls, eight point rolls etc joined together with Derry turns and so on, great fun.
But never, to my knowlege, an aileron roll. I thought that if the nose was raised a bit, and aileron applied till the 360 degrees was completed, the aeroplane would do it itself. As Beags asks, what is taught in the Tucano? I must have done them in Chimunks, but that is how it seemed to me.
But that didn't stop me enjoying myself on occasions such as BofB displays, AOC inspections, and the like in the trusty Vamp T11. Lots of knots, appear from behind the spectators, pull up for a vertical four point roll, pull gently over the top, airbrakes out and throttle off into vertical down four point before the normal slow rolls, eight point rolls etc joined together with Derry turns and so on, great fun.
But never, to my knowlege, an aileron roll. I thought that if the nose was raised a bit, and aileron applied till the 360 degrees was completed, the aeroplane would do it itself. As Beags asks, what is taught in the Tucano? I must have done them in Chimunks, but that is how it seemed to me.
Yes, Him
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a Gnat with the fuses removed,
But replacing "S" fuse with "U/S" fuse was not.
Twas the idea of Lee Jones(?) first Yellowjacks leader.
Henry, I agree, there's certainly no finesse about an aileron roll, whatever the rate of roll of that aircraft.
However, the original statement was that it has not been taught by the RAF; this has now been shown to be inaccurate as it is still taught on the Tucano. Surely, an acknowledgment of that would not come amiss rather than BEagles somewhat petulant post of a few days ago?
However, the original statement was that it has not been taught by the RAF; this has now been shown to be inaccurate as it is still taught on the Tucano. Surely, an acknowledgment of that would not come amiss rather than BEagles somewhat petulant post of a few days ago?
Bolleaux!
If it's really taught on the Tincano, then tell us what it is supposed to be all about. Pitch up, apply full aileron and wait for the world to reappear the right way up? Is that really it?
Perhaps RAF training is now so dumbed-down that such a yug, shove, wait thing is now considered to be a legitimate aerobatic manoeuvre?
If it's really taught on the Tincano, then tell us what it is supposed to be all about. Pitch up, apply full aileron and wait for the world to reappear the right way up? Is that really it?
Perhaps RAF training is now so dumbed-down that such a yug, shove, wait thing is now considered to be a legitimate aerobatic manoeuvre?
Last edited by BEagle; 24th Apr 2005 at 19:00.
Awesome but Affordable
With all due respect, I have found the aileron roll to be quite the best confidence builder for the student in the very basic stage of teaching aerobatics. So there...........!!!!
Cheers,
Trapper 69
Cheers,
Trapper 69
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All fascinating stuff on the rolls, so I thought I'd just have a quick look at the roll at the begining of the BoB. I've just got a copy of the remastered version.
Am I seeing things? when our hero (who did the roll) lands the Hurricane coded H and jumps from his cockpit onto the wing, there appears to be a goat behind him in the cockpit!
please tell me I'm mistaken!!
Am I seeing things? when our hero (who did the roll) lands the Hurricane coded H and jumps from his cockpit onto the wing, there appears to be a goat behind him in the cockpit!
please tell me I'm mistaken!!
Gnome de PPRuNe
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Algy, it was probably his nanny....
Now, do I sense the first ever PPRuNe aerobatic contest to see who teaches/flies the best rolls...? (Would that be a Duel Roll?)
Gentlemen, choose you weapons!
Now, do I sense the first ever PPRuNe aerobatic contest to see who teaches/flies the best rolls...? (Would that be a Duel Roll?)
Gentlemen, choose you weapons!
"I have found the aileron roll to be quite the best confidence builder for the student in the very basic stage of teaching aerobatics."
Trapper - I'll concede that yes, the so-called aileron roll is a good way of getting very basic aspirant aerobatic pilots used to seeing the world in odd positions without the discomfort of prolonged negative g or the relatively high g loads needed to pull up for a loop. Pitch up, check gently, full aileron and wait, then recover to normal flight when the world reappears in the more normal location....
But that's about all. It is hardly a precise manoeuvre, in my view.
We always started with the loop, then the barrel roll, then the slow roll. After that the stall turn and then the roll-off-the-top. When those 'basic 5' had been mastered reasonably well, we started to link the together and to introduce variations such as horizontal and cuban eights, hesitation rolls, noddy stall turns etc...
Aileron turns in the vertical, perhaps. But no 'aileron rolls'....
Trapper - I'll concede that yes, the so-called aileron roll is a good way of getting very basic aspirant aerobatic pilots used to seeing the world in odd positions without the discomfort of prolonged negative g or the relatively high g loads needed to pull up for a loop. Pitch up, check gently, full aileron and wait, then recover to normal flight when the world reappears in the more normal location....
But that's about all. It is hardly a precise manoeuvre, in my view.
We always started with the loop, then the barrel roll, then the slow roll. After that the stall turn and then the roll-off-the-top. When those 'basic 5' had been mastered reasonably well, we started to link the together and to introduce variations such as horizontal and cuban eights, hesitation rolls, noddy stall turns etc...
Aileron turns in the vertical, perhaps. But no 'aileron rolls'....
Cool Mod
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We always started with the loop, then the barrel roll, then the slow roll. After that the stall turn and then the roll-off-the-top. When those 'basic 5' had been mastered reasonably well, we started to link the together and to introduce variations such as horizontal and cuban eights, hesitation rolls, noddy stall turns etc...
The aileron roll was never allowed in competitions but the aileron turn was, to change direction but not a manouvre in its own right.
But as said the aileron roll was useful as a confidence builder, especially one with a 'cough.'
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In June 68 during the making of the BofB film, Connie Edwards and I gave a little display at Debden for their open day, he in a Bouchon, me in a Spit Mk2. I think all we did was a gentle low level tailchase over the aerodrome, but no doubt it included the odd aileron roll, with wing overs at each end. I don't think any vertical manoevres were included, though it is a day or two ago now, and I can't really remember. He would have been leading, with me on his tail, since this was for a British audience. We had to cut it a bit short because my very old Merlin began to overheat!
I'm really making the point that we didn't try and do skilfull slow rolls, with negative G and all, because the occasion did not demand it. Neither, I would suggest, would the average victory roll have been.
Incidentally, I don't recall any goats in cockpits, and if I did I'm not naming names!
I'm really making the point that we didn't try and do skilfull slow rolls, with negative G and all, because the occasion did not demand it. Neither, I would suggest, would the average victory roll have been.
Incidentally, I don't recall any goats in cockpits, and if I did I'm not naming names!
It is interesting how such a simple manoeuvre as the aileron roll has generated so much debate! I would like to continue with Trapper 69's point about using the aileron roll as a building block when teaching aerobatics. Rolling with full aileron is used commonly in manoeuvres on a 45 or vertical up or down line, but it is easier to teach the basics first on a horizontal line. Good rudder co-ordination is needed to prevent yaw and the roll needs to be stopped crisply at the desired point. This is much easier to teach when level. One of the contentious points regarding whether it is worth teaching in aircraft such as the Bulldog is that full aileron roll performance is so poor that it is difficult to maintain level as either you need to pitch the nose up so far when you start the roll that you climb or you need an excessive push when inverted or a combination of both. Therefore, a slow roll (using top rudder to maintain level) is a better technique for a stand alone manoeuvre in such aircraft.
As for the usefulness of an aileron roll, during display flying in a low speed aircraft it is very useful for repositioning into wind as the only alternative is to fly straight and level! Also, in high performance aircraft it demonstrates the roll performance very well and can be quite a spectacular manoeuvre, especially if multiple rolls are permitted. However, it is not always straightforward to perform. If you have a high steady state roll rate and poor roll damping it requires a lot of practise to stop exactly wings level, especially if the lateral centring characteristics of the stick are poor making it hard to select neutral aileron quickly. Also, if the directional stability is weak, when you stop the roll there will be a lot of sideslip so that the aircraft finishes the roll going sideways or even "snaking" if Dutch roll damping is low; this looks very untidy. The Buccaneer was one such aircraft, and to make a clean exit from a full stick aileron roll I would start to progressively reduce the aileron input after 270 degrees of roll. This allowed the sideslip to reduce progressively.
Back to the "Victory" roll. Most WWII fighters had relatively poor roll performance making level aileron rolls difficult. To perform a level slow roll safely (whilst the engine rich cut if you did not have a fuel injected engine!) required a sensible height. Therefore, if attempting to demonstrate a celebratory manoeuvre, what looks more spectacular, a climbing roll entered from 30 feet (or lower) or a level roll at 300 ft? Today, in warbird displays aileron rolls are generally flown on a climbing line without pushing so as to maintain oil pressure (engine wear considerations), prevent a rich cut (spectator cardiac arrest considerations), and be safe when little practise is available.
As for the usefulness of an aileron roll, during display flying in a low speed aircraft it is very useful for repositioning into wind as the only alternative is to fly straight and level! Also, in high performance aircraft it demonstrates the roll performance very well and can be quite a spectacular manoeuvre, especially if multiple rolls are permitted. However, it is not always straightforward to perform. If you have a high steady state roll rate and poor roll damping it requires a lot of practise to stop exactly wings level, especially if the lateral centring characteristics of the stick are poor making it hard to select neutral aileron quickly. Also, if the directional stability is weak, when you stop the roll there will be a lot of sideslip so that the aircraft finishes the roll going sideways or even "snaking" if Dutch roll damping is low; this looks very untidy. The Buccaneer was one such aircraft, and to make a clean exit from a full stick aileron roll I would start to progressively reduce the aileron input after 270 degrees of roll. This allowed the sideslip to reduce progressively.
Back to the "Victory" roll. Most WWII fighters had relatively poor roll performance making level aileron rolls difficult. To perform a level slow roll safely (whilst the engine rich cut if you did not have a fuel injected engine!) required a sensible height. Therefore, if attempting to demonstrate a celebratory manoeuvre, what looks more spectacular, a climbing roll entered from 30 feet (or lower) or a level roll at 300 ft? Today, in warbird displays aileron rolls are generally flown on a climbing line without pushing so as to maintain oil pressure (engine wear considerations), prevent a rich cut (spectator cardiac arrest considerations), and be safe when little practise is available.
Cool Mod
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Bad wx today?
I could almost close the thread on that very descriptive note - but I won't. It is indeed interesting how much comment the subject has gained. It is also good to have experienced comments so that our younger members, who are venturing into aeros, have the priviledge of getting the best advice that is available - dare I suggest anywhere!
I especially like the points about wings level which is an aspect that needed good judgement and control in pitch and yaw. I was lucky enough to have my rough edges smoothed out by Neil Williams, Pete Jarvis and Carl Schofield and the aileron roll was a good place to start for all rolls. The 'cough' on the Tiger and the Stampe (if it didn't have the inverted system) was always disconcerting, and took a bit a getting used to, but that is what training is for.
I remember one display pilot who flew the B4 and the Victa Airtourer, both of which were without an inverted system, and on one occasion on the IOW the Airtourer lost a lot of height and led to massive intakes of breath. I think I led them! But, it amply demonstrates that starting a full aileron roll without the correct height, and raising the nose first, is a recipe for a disaster, for you will almost certainly head earthwards otherwise. It has happened a few times.
I could almost close the thread on that very descriptive note - but I won't. It is indeed interesting how much comment the subject has gained. It is also good to have experienced comments so that our younger members, who are venturing into aeros, have the priviledge of getting the best advice that is available - dare I suggest anywhere!
I especially like the points about wings level which is an aspect that needed good judgement and control in pitch and yaw. I was lucky enough to have my rough edges smoothed out by Neil Williams, Pete Jarvis and Carl Schofield and the aileron roll was a good place to start for all rolls. The 'cough' on the Tiger and the Stampe (if it didn't have the inverted system) was always disconcerting, and took a bit a getting used to, but that is what training is for.
I remember one display pilot who flew the B4 and the Victa Airtourer, both of which were without an inverted system, and on one occasion on the IOW the Airtourer lost a lot of height and led to massive intakes of breath. I think I led them! But, it amply demonstrates that starting a full aileron roll without the correct height, and raising the nose first, is a recipe for a disaster, for you will almost certainly head earthwards otherwise. It has happened a few times.
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Fascinating stuff, even to a non pilot such as I.
While in this area of the performance envelope, I've read and been told that what is today known as the 'Immelman turn' would have been impossible in a Fokker Eindekker.
Sadly, for such an significant type in the history of air warfare, there's not been a Fokker E-1 flying (AFAIK) in living memory. The PPS replica was quickly fitted with ailerons, and a always had a radial rather than rotary engine, so can hardly be regarded as having original performance.
So a couple of questions. Anyone know if it is impossible and why? If so, what did Immelman actually do? And why did the name end up on the manouvre it describes?
While in this area of the performance envelope, I've read and been told that what is today known as the 'Immelman turn' would have been impossible in a Fokker Eindekker.
Sadly, for such an significant type in the history of air warfare, there's not been a Fokker E-1 flying (AFAIK) in living memory. The PPS replica was quickly fitted with ailerons, and a always had a radial rather than rotary engine, so can hardly be regarded as having original performance.
So a couple of questions. Anyone know if it is impossible and why? If so, what did Immelman actually do? And why did the name end up on the manouvre it describes?