AW Argosy query
Thread Starter
AW Argosy query
How capable an aircraft was the Argosy?
I ask because in the last three days, I've read totally contradictory assessments of the aircraft. In essence, the first view says that the aircraft was at best merely OK, and rather limited in what it could do.
The second claims that the Argosy was rather good, and that it was ridiculous that they were retired from RAF service so soon. Any idea as to which is the more accurate of these two judgements, please?
I ask because in the last three days, I've read totally contradictory assessments of the aircraft. In essence, the first view says that the aircraft was at best merely OK, and rather limited in what it could do.
The second claims that the Argosy was rather good, and that it was ridiculous that they were retired from RAF service so soon. Any idea as to which is the more accurate of these two judgements, please?
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Wasn't their retirement a political, rather than an operational, decision?
I think Dennis Healey wielded the big axe in 1977 having decided that as we were no longer a significant presence east of Suez we didn't need such a large transport fleet.
Thus the Argosy, Belfast and Britannia fleets all got the chop and I believe even most Andovers departed under this plan too. This was not about selling the family silver to raise money but to save on running costs. All were sold off pretty cheaply (£50,000 for a Belfast, I gather).
So the question of whether these types were good or bad didn't enter into it - our political masters decreed they had to go and they did.
I do recall reading that the Argosy had its share of shortcomings from an aviator's point of view so it would be interesting if some ex-pilots would let us hear their experiences of the Whistling Wheelbarrow.
I think Dennis Healey wielded the big axe in 1977 having decided that as we were no longer a significant presence east of Suez we didn't need such a large transport fleet.
Thus the Argosy, Belfast and Britannia fleets all got the chop and I believe even most Andovers departed under this plan too. This was not about selling the family silver to raise money but to save on running costs. All were sold off pretty cheaply (£50,000 for a Belfast, I gather).
So the question of whether these types were good or bad didn't enter into it - our political masters decreed they had to go and they did.
I do recall reading that the Argosy had its share of shortcomings from an aviator's point of view so it would be interesting if some ex-pilots would let us hear their experiences of the Whistling Wheelbarrow.
Thread Starter
EGAC, you're quite right - the withdrawal from East of Suez led to a reduction in the transport fleet, and quality wasn't the first, second or third issue....
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What were the economics of the Argosy like? In 1972, Aer Turas leased one from Transair Canada (EI-AVJ) but gave it back because it wasn't working out too well for them. A year or so later, they bought a second hand Britannia (EI-BAA).
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From what I have read it was a perfectly acceptable aircraft. Where it suffered was in 'hot and high' conditions where it simply didn't have enough grunt! It's been mentioned numerous times that it needed Tynes and from memory there was a latter series wing (series 200) which would have made it more capable if they had been retrofitted.
It was an age old example of the RAF using a tactical transporter for strategic use and that's were the main problems were found.
It was an age old example of the RAF using a tactical transporter for strategic use and that's were the main problems were found.
I was involved in an Argosy operation almost 20 years ago (2 x 200's; 1 x 100). They were a great concept - donks off two F-27's for three times the payload, but they weren't the best hot and high. Cairns - Port Moresby, 480 nm, 12,500 kg payload, but still struggling to get 12,000 feet at TOD. Loading and unloading was a dream.
I think in the end, reliability of the steam driven bits and electrics were their downfall.
They operated in Australia for many years; not sure where they ended up - maybe in New Zealand?
I think in the end, reliability of the steam driven bits and electrics were their downfall.
They operated in Australia for many years; not sure where they ended up - maybe in New Zealand?
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I think the last two flyers were N1430Z and N896U - both based in the US - and I was fortunate to see the former fly in the late 1980s while on its annual contract in support of the summer firefighting effort at Fort Wainwright, Alaska.
I subsequently saw it retired to a small outdoor museum at Fox Field in Lancaster, California where it continues to moulder away. A recent pic. is here:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/564602/L/
N896U is at the Yankee Air Museum in Willow Run, Detroit. The museum hangar burned to the ground last month but all outdoor exhibits, including the Argosy, survived. Pic. here:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/241925/L/
A few Argosies survive in museums in the UK.
A census of worldwide survivors is here:
http://www.oldprops.f9.co.uk/Argosy.htm
I subsequently saw it retired to a small outdoor museum at Fox Field in Lancaster, California where it continues to moulder away. A recent pic. is here:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/564602/L/
N896U is at the Yankee Air Museum in Willow Run, Detroit. The museum hangar burned to the ground last month but all outdoor exhibits, including the Argosy, survived. Pic. here:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/241925/L/
A few Argosies survive in museums in the UK.
A census of worldwide survivors is here:
http://www.oldprops.f9.co.uk/Argosy.htm
Torres
Evidently you are talking about IPEC. Sadly, their Argosies were torn apart for scrap at Essendon in Dec 90, right in the backyard of the embryonic (and subsequently stillborn) National Air and Space Museum of Australia. But that's another story. I believe that the Moorabbin Air Museum have an MLG leg.
Regards
Evidently you are talking about IPEC. Sadly, their Argosies were torn apart for scrap at Essendon in Dec 90, right in the backyard of the embryonic (and subsequently stillborn) National Air and Space Museum of Australia. But that's another story. I believe that the Moorabbin Air Museum have an MLG leg.
Regards
I survived 10 years on the old girl and enjoyed the experienced. It could have done with bigger engines such as the Dart Da10 with reversing props.
EGAC: I think you are a bit out with your 1977 date. The Argosy was withdrawn from transport service at the end of 1971. The Belfast went in 1976. I attended both events!
EGAC: I think you are a bit out with your 1977 date. The Argosy was withdrawn from transport service at the end of 1971. The Belfast went in 1976. I attended both events!
I think you are a bit out with your 1977 date. The Argosy was withdrawn from transport service at the end of 1971 ................
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JW411 and spelkesoftly:
You are both correct. Since I typed my original contribution above I have discovered this website:
http://www.argosyair.com/index.html
The individual aircraft histories it contains show that most airframes were in MUs by the early 1970s although some were still on the go for a few more years. So Mr Healey's 1977 axe was NOT to blame for the en masse demise of the Argosy .
This website is comprehensive and well worth a visit.
You are both correct. Since I typed my original contribution above I have discovered this website:
http://www.argosyair.com/index.html
The individual aircraft histories it contains show that most airframes were in MUs by the early 1970s although some were still on the go for a few more years. So Mr Healey's 1977 axe was NOT to blame for the en masse demise of the Argosy .
This website is comprehensive and well worth a visit.
Yes, Him
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70Sqn at Akrotiri had Argosys till at least 1972, the AOC of Near East Air Force had a VIP configured white over grey one operated by 70 and there were at least two other "standard" models in brown/sand camo which ran concurrently with 70's first Hercs IIRC.
Some Argosys (and Hercs) were adorned with large Red Crosses for ops to evac Jordanian Army wounded from Jordon to Cyprus during Black September. I remember the crews saying the smell was so bad (some wounded had gangrene) on some flights that they removed the cockpit overhead escape hatch
Later, 115Sqn operated them for nav-aid check/calibration, I think they were based at Benson.
115Sqn Whistling Tit at Wittering about 1974-5
Some Argosys (and Hercs) were adorned with large Red Crosses for ops to evac Jordanian Army wounded from Jordon to Cyprus during Black September. I remember the crews saying the smell was so bad (some wounded had gangrene) on some flights that they removed the cockpit overhead escape hatch
Later, 115Sqn operated them for nav-aid check/calibration, I think they were based at Benson.
115Sqn Whistling Tit at Wittering about 1974-5
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spekesoftly
That would probably have been the ISIS kite.
Maybe "ISIS" is the wrong acronym
, someone will jump in with the right name I'm sure. But I mean the Whistling T^T that was used up and down route to calibrate the ATC kit. Used to be a regular visitor at Gan in 72/73.
That would probably have been the ISIS kite.
Maybe "ISIS" is the wrong acronym
, someone will jump in with the right name I'm sure. But I mean the Whistling T^T that was used up and down route to calibrate the ATC kit. Used to be a regular visitor at Gan in 72/73.